Legal Guarding Position?

[Huntin' Ref]

Last night I called a pushing foul when a defender "walked into" the post player attempting a shot from behind and committed an obvious foul. This situation had me think about a similar situation that could occur. I looked it up in the case book and rule book and can't seem to string together a clear understanding so I am hoping that some of my esteemed colleagues (you guys) can help me out.

Post player near the block pivots and squares up to the basket. Primary defender is bodied up and vertical. Secondary defender closes down from guarding a player at the wing and puts their body against or almost against the offensive players back. What do you have if the offensive player tries to take a shot but contact occurs as they are essentially "trapped" from behind? Is this a LGP issue?

Thanks in advance!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Huntin' Ref

Last night I called a pushing foul when a defender "walked into" the post player attempting a shot from behind and committed an obvious foul. This situation had me think about a similar situation that could occur. I looked it up in the case book and rule book and can't seem to string together a clear understanding so I am hoping that some of my esteemed colleagues (you guys) can help me out.

Post player near the block pivots and squares up to the basket. Primary defender is bodied up and vertical. Secondary defender closes down from guarding a player at the wing and puts their body against or almost against the offensive players back. What do you have if the offensive player tries to take a shot but contact occurs as they are essentially "trapped" from behind? Is this a LGP issue?

Thanks in advance!

Yes, it's an LGP issue. If B2 keeps moving into the shooter, I have a foul or nothing. If B2 stops before A1 leaves the floor, I probably have nothing.

[VaTerp]

Agree it's a LGP issue.

The secondary defender is entitled to that spot on the floor provided they got their before the offensive player begins their habitual shooting motion and the initial contact, if any, is not deemed illegal.

As long as the secondary defender does not continue moving toward the offensive player, I've got nothing. I'm not "bailing" the kid out for essentially forcing up a bad shot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Agree it's a LGP issue.

The secondary defender is entitled to that spot on the floor provided they got their before the offensive player begins their habitual shooting motion.

reference, please.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

reference, please.

I knew this was coming after I typed it. A case of too much verbiage on my part.

What I meant was that if the secondary defender gets their after the player begins "to take a shot" as referenced in the OP then I would say that defender has not established LGP and the contact that occurs would be illegal based on 4.23 art. 1.

[tref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

What I meant was that if the secondary defender gets their after the player begins "to take a shot"...

Do you mean if the 2ndary defender gets there before the shooter alights?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by tref

Do you mean if the 2ndary defender gets there before the shooter alights?

No.

[tref]

Okay, I just asked based on your first response:

Originally Posted by VaTerp

The secondary defender is entitled to that spot on the floor provided they got their before the offensive player begins their habitual shooting motion and the initial contact, if any, is not deemed illegal.

I thought all players in HS were entitled to a spot provided they got there before the shooter alights

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

No.

You should have meant that, because that's the rule. "Beginning the customary motion" has nothing to do with LGP. LGP can be established well after the customary motion, and any (well, most) foul after that time until the offensive player becomes airborne would then be a PC (or TC) foul.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by tref

Okay, I just asked based on your first response:



I thought all players in HS were entitled to a spot provided they got their before the shooter alights

I'm wrong then.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You should have meant that, because that's the rule. "Beginning the customary motion" has nothing to do with LGP. LGP can be established well after the customary motion, and any (well, most) foul after that time until the offensive player becomes airborne would then be a PC (or TC) foul.

Looks like I am mistakenly using an NBA interpretation. NFHS reference, please.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm wrong then.



Looks like I am mistakenly using an NBA interpretation. NFHS reference, please.

4-23 Guarding

ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

[tref]

Pretty much the same in The League...

2. Guarding an Opponent
In all guarding situations, a player is entitled to any spot on the court he desires, provided he legally gets to that spot first and without contact with an opponent...
A player is never permitted to move into the path of an opponent after the opponent has jumped into the air.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4-23 Guarding

ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

Thanks.

Is there a case book play or somewhere else where this is referenced?

I've only heard NBA officials use the term aligns.

[APG]

Originally Posted by tref

Pretty much the same in The League...

2. Guarding an Opponent
In all guarding situations, a player is entitled to any spot on the court he desires, provided he legally gets to that spot first and without contact with an opponent...
A player is never permitted to move into the path of an opponent after the opponent has jumped into the air.

And under NBA rules, to legally get to that spot first, you must be there before the offensive player with the ball starts his upward motion.

This is a rules difference between NBA and NF/NCAA in that it requires the defender to be there a split second earlier.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Is there a case book play or somewhere else where this is referenced?

Probably.