The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 05:11pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
No Illegal Contact In Block/Charge ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
"Bodies on the floor, we need to have something" is one of those overused, nonsensical philosophies that make me cringe whenever I hear it in a pregame.
In general? Sure. Agree.

But even for a block/charge situation?

I guess one can have a block/charge contact situation end up with two players on the floor with no illegal contact. But it's probably very rare.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 22, 2021 at 10:15am.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 08:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
"Bodies on the floor, we need to have something" is one of those overused, nonsensical philosophies that make me cringe whenever I hear it in a pregame.
Agree. I too cringe when I hear it.

I say that when there are two bodies down, you better know how they got there so you can make the right decision (which could be no call).
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 24, 2021, 08:14am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
IAABO Survey Says

Disclaimer: Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...Oom8K4YtrW.mp4

IAABO Play Commentary

Correct Answer: This is a player control foul.

This is an outstanding discussion play to outline the important aspects of the rules surrounding blocking, charging, and legal guarding position. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. (4-23-1) When talking to officials about legal guarding, they are very quick to point out there are two primary elements to LGP (1. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court, 2. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.) But we cannot forget about the path of the offensive player.

So does the defender obtain a legal guarding position? The answer is yes. When the offensive player catches the ball and faces the lane, the defender is directly in front of the ball handler with two feet on the floor and facing. Then the dribbler attempts to dribble around the defender and make a move toward the endline. In other words, the "path" has now changed. Now legal guarding moves from the "obtaining" mode to the "maintaining" mode. If the defender wants to maintain his LGP, he may move laterally or obliquely in an attempt to "stay in the path" of the ball handler. However, the defender may not be moving toward the opponent when contact occurs. (4-23-3c)

As it often does, plays such as this come down to did the dribbler get head and shoulders past the defender. If a dribbler can get his head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent. (10-7-8) From the sideline view of the play, it does appear the defender successfully gets both feet in the path of the dribbler with a wide stance when the dribbler's right shoulder contacts the defender in the torso area. From the endline view, you can see the dribbler's head, but not his shoulders, get in advance of the defender's torso as contact occurs. Also, it does not appear the defender is moving forward from this angle but is actually stationary when the contact occurs.

Based on these factors, this would be considered a player control foul. This can be a challenging play. When ruling on dribbler/defender contact, the head and shoulders concept can really help simplify the ruling for officials. Look and see where the contact is committed. If the ball handler did not get head and shoulders by the defender when contact occurred, there is a high probability the defender was successful in getting into the path to obtain or maintain LGP.


Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a player control foul 78% (including me). This is a blocking foul 22%.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 25, 2021, 02:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I thought it was a block from the first look. It looked like a bit of a hip thrust to initiate contact.

The endline angle proves that wrong. Easy PC from that look.

I thought the same thing. Relative motion can be deceptive. When the offensive player is moving much faster than the retreating or stationary defender, it can make it appear as though the defender was moving toward the offensive player at contact.

This is something Ive worked to become much more mindful of in recent seasons, and something I review on video. It has helped a lot.

I think this is also part of the reason loud mouths like Jay Bilas think officials call too many PC fouls. To ignorant announcers, they dont look like PC fouls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 25, 2021, 02:35pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Special Relativity Or General Relativity ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Relative motion can be deceptive.
Why is Albert Einstein posting under crosscountry55's username?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 25, 2021, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I thought the same thing. Relative motion can be deceptive. When the offensive player is moving much faster than the retreating or stationary defender, it can make it appear as though the defender was moving toward the offensive player at contact.
In reality, it is almost impossible for a retreating defender to commit a block. Try running backwards without momentarily having both feet on the floor at some point. And, if the defender was retreating, that usually implies they were facing the opponent with the opponent coming at them.

As long as the opponent doesn't get head/shoulders by the defender before contact, it is almost guaranteed that the defender both had LGP and, if they were retreating toward the endline behind them, even if they were also moving sideways, were not moving toward the opponent and legally maintained LGP.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 25, 2021, 02:49pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Almost Guaranteed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
In reality, it is almost impossible for a retreating defender to commit a block. Try running backwards without momentarily having both feet on the floor at some point. And, if the defender was retreating, that usually implies they were facing the opponent with the opponent coming at them. As long as the opponent doesn't get head/shoulders by the defender before contact, it is almost guaranteed that the defender both had LGP and, if they were retreating toward the endline behind them, even if they were also moving sideways, were not moving toward the opponent and legally maintained LGP.
Good explanation. Thanks.

Posts like this are why the Forum can be a great resource for inexperienced (or even experienced) officials.

Young'uns and whippersnappers should pay close attention.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Apr 25, 2021 at 03:17pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Legal Guarding Position Zoochy Basketball 29 Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:14pm
Legal Guarding Position RefBob Basketball 21 Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:23am
Legal Guarding Position? Huntin' Ref Basketball 15 Wed Jan 04, 2012 01:44pm
Legal Guarding Position rockyroad Basketball 9 Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:53pm
Legal Guarding Position Jurassic Referee Basketball 49 Fri May 04, 2007 01:12pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:37pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1