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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 11, 2021, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree.

With the Google Document link below...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
Great read! Anyone that can make sense of it all after only 1 time through is better than me, however, but a great collection of case plays and rule citations to help bring thought and understanding to the issue.

For the number of times that an official may run into the end-of-game-delay situation in any given year, definitely worth review! A great example of knowing how to use the rule book to get out of trouble, not into it...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 11, 2021, 06:59pm
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Thanks Patrick Ewing and Georgetown Hoyas ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danvrapp View Post
Great read! For the number of times that an official may run into the end-of-game-delay situation in any given year, definitely worth review!
Thanks, but it's not even a real first draft. It's just "random" spit-balling research. I hesitated to draw any conclusions due to "conflicting" rules and caseplays.

Too many rule-based possibilities, often conflicting.

Warning after delay. Technical foul after the warning for delay. "Instant" technical foul for preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. "Instant" technical foul for unsporting acts not limited to ...

Is "instant" technical foul for delay allowed by rule?

Some are team technicals (preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play, unsporting, and delay of game), and some are player technicals (only preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play, and unsporting (not for delay of game)), further complicating matters.

And then there are the "cast in stone" penalties (no discretion allowed): Crossing the boundary line and knocking the ball out of the inbounder's hands (technical foul), and crossing the boundary line and fouling the inbounder (intentional personal foul), and also tack on a delay warning in the book for either.

And for added flavor throw in "more than five seconds" and "less than five seconds".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 12:16pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 11, 2021, 09:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
And for added flavor throw in "more than five seconds" and "less than five seconds".
That’s what I was thinking from when I first read the OP: if this is under five seconds, there’s that case play that says to ignore the delay tactic if the clock is running.

But in this case it sounds like there were more than five seconds (slow-blow the warning if you must), and on top of that you had a home team player actively trying to get the ball for reasons unknown—probably just habitual hustle sans game awareness. So I like how we arrived at the solution of issuing a player technical in this case; it is very defendable by rule and the right choice to prevent escalation.


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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
So I like how we arrived at the solution of issuing a player technical in this case; it is very defendable by rule and the right choice to prevent escalation.
Agree. But which rule was used?

"Instant" technical foul for preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play? Fine choice. If chosen, team technical foul, or player technical foul? Both are rule options. How does one choose? The choice does impact player disqualification, so it's not just "academic"? I suggest it's a player technical foul.

Or "instant" technical foul for unsporting acts not limited to ...? Another good choice. If chosen, team technical foul, or player technical foul? Both are rule options. How does one choose? The choice does impact player disqualification, so it's not just "academic"? I suggest it's a player technical foul.

Or "instant" technical foul for delay? I'm not 100% sure that this choice is a rule (without a prior warning). Also, "delay" can only be a team (not player) technical foul.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 12:18pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 12:13pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would issue a player technical foul in this situation for delay of game. The rules book language is something akin to preventing the ball from being made promptly live.
"Instant" technical foul for preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play? Good interpretation, but be sure to use this rule language.

"Instant" technical foul for delay? I'm not 100% sure that is a rule without an earlier warning. Also, "delay" can only be a team (not player) technical foul. Be careful with the rule language.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would issue a player technical foul in this situation for delay of game. The rules book language is something akin to preventing the ball from being made promptly live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"Instant" technical foul for preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play? Good interpretation, but be sure to use this rule language.

"Instant" technical foul for delay? I'm not 100% sure that is a rule without an earlier warning. Also, "delay" can only be a team (not player) technical foul. Be careful with the rule language.
I can't believe that I'm giving advice to Nevadaref. Am I having a nightmare?

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 01:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"Instant" technical foul for delay? I'm not 100% sure that is a rule without an earlier warning. Also, "delay" can only be a team (not player) technical foul. Be careful with the rule language.
You'd be incorrect....

Rule 10-4-5 (Player Technical)

Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 02:24pm
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Delay ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"Instant" technical foul for delay? I'm not 100% sure that is a rule without an earlier warning. Also, "delay" can only be a team (not player) technical foul. Be careful with the rule language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You'd be incorrect....
My apologies for not being more specific.

"Delay" is my shorthand for:

10-2-1: Team Technical
Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
e. Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.


I do not believe that there is a comparable version of this rule, listing four specific delay acts including "interfering", under Player Technical.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 03:03pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 02:42pm
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Delay, Interfere, Prevent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You'd be incorrect....
In my opinion, we have four rule references to deal with such "delay/interfere/prevent" situations as described in this thread:

Team Warning
A team warning is a warning to a team for delay for interfering with the ball following a goal.
I call this the "delay warning" option (four specifics listed, including interfering). Only a team (not player) technical foul.

Team Technical Foul
Teams shall not allow the game to develop into an actionless contest including interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.
I call this the "delay technical" (four specifics listed including interfering) option. By rule, there must be a warning. Only a team (not player) technical foul.

Team Technical Foul Or Player Technical Foul
Teams and players shall not delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
I call this the "prevent" option. Team technical foul or player technical foul. I suggest that a player (rather than a team) technical foul is more appropriate (it matters because of disqualification).

Team Technical Foul Or Player Technical Foul
Teams and players shall not commit unsporting fouls (not limited to).
I call this the "unsporting" option. Team technical foul or player technical foul. I suggest that a player (rather than a team) technical foul is more appropriate (it matters because of disqualification).

Which rule do we use? Ay, there’s the rub!
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 03:23pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

Which rule do we use? Ay, there’s the rub!
Someone will have to check all the particulars, but if the delay is due to ONE PLAYER make it a player technical foul. If more than one player, make it a TEAM technical. The "T after warning" falls into the later category because we don't know that teh same player will commit both the "warning act" and the "technical act."
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 03:16pm
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There's No I In Team ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The "T after warning" falls into the later category because we don't know that the same player will commit both the "warning act" and the "technical act."
Great point.

Exactly why the warning for delay for interfering with the ball following a goal (or any of the other three specific delay acts listed), and the technical foul for delay for interfering with the ball following a goal (or any of the other three specific delay acts listed), is always warned and/or charged to the team (never to a player).
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 03:23pm
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Five Options ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In my opinion, we have four rule references to deal with such "delay/interfere/prevent" situations as described in this thread:

Team Warning
A team warning is a warning to a team for delay for interfering with the ball following a goal.
I call this the "delay warning" option (four specifics listed, including interfering). Only a team (not player) technical foul.

Team Technical Foul
Teams shall not allow the game to develop into an actionless contest including interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.
I call this the "delay technical" (four specifics listed including interfering) option. By rule, there must be a warning. Only a team (not player) technical foul.

Team Technical Foul Or Player Technical Foul
Teams and players shall not delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
I call this the "prevent" option. Team technical foul or player technical foul. I suggest that a player (rather than a team) technical foul is more appropriate (it matters because of disqualification).

Team Technical Foul Or Player Technical Foul
Teams and players shall not commit unsporting fouls (not limited to).
I call this the "unsporting" option. Team technical foul or player technical foul. I suggest that a player (rather than a team) technical foul is more appropriate (it matters because of disqualification).
Actually five options:

9.2.10.A: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock.

I call this the "five second" option.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 04:16pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 03:38pm
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Ball Or Thrower ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Which rule do we use? Ay, there’s the rub!
Here's a key statement:

9.2.10 SITUATION A: ... an interfering with the ball following a goal if in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued.

There's a slight wording difference between interfering with the ball following a goal and interfering with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in.

If a defender is interfering with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, is that a violation of interfering with the ball following a goal, preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play, or is it unsporting?

I say no (because of the word ball in the rule), yes, and yes.

Narrows it down to two choices. Both can be (and probably should be) player technical fouls. Same penalties. Either should suffice to deal with this situation.

I prefer delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play because, like the caseplay, it has the word "delay" in it.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 03:42pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 12, 2021, 03:47pm
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Final Answer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw1ns View Post
VISITING team is down by 10 with 15 secs left in game come down and drain a 3 pointer. one of the VISITING players grabs the ball after it goes through the net and just holds it, bear hugs it actually. I am thinking, "what is he doing?" the clock is running and they are still down 7. I hear 'just hold it' from the bench. one of the home team players actually tries to grab the ball....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I prefer delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play because, like the caseplay, it has the word "delay" in it.
After much research, rational thought, and contributions from Forum members:

10-4-5-A: A player must not: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 04:14pm.
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