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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 12:09pm
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Wow...I thought I had seen the worse but these guys were bad.

Last night we were in a close game and these umpires really seemed to be working against me...I know better than that, but all the bad calls seemed to come our way. Even the other coach told me that one of his parents must of paid the guys to call a game like that.

Here is the situation that got me fired up...
R1 and R2 1 out, 2-2 count, stirke three hits the ground. BR takes off for first which sent a chain reaction for R1 and R2 to advance. My catcher holds the ball for a few seconds waiting for BR to be called out he is called safe at first. My catcher guns to 3rd to pick-off R2. They score two runs on error by F5. I come out call time and ask that the batter now on second should be out. He tells me bases must be loaded on a dropped third strike for him to be called out. I said no...you've got to be kidding. He gets really loud and tells me to show him in the rule book...he got way out of line for an umpire. I pulled out my OBR rule book start turning for rule 6. He then tells me to leave the field...I tihnk he is realizing his mistake. I show him the rule anyways and he still won't change it. Could he have fixed it?

Then next inning it is a caught third strike with R3 and BR goes running to first. My catcher holds of R3 thinking BR is out...PU doesn't call him out. F2 throws to 1st and then PU says "He's out". R3 scores...we complain that he should have called him out long before he did. He told us the catcher should know...based on previous events that game the catcher isn't sure he knows anything with this ump behind the plate. Isn't it his responsibility to let us know catch or no catch on strike 3?

And then the BU was that laziest guy out there...wouldn't move to make a call...missed three obvious outs at third base that even thier base coach grimaced from. We lost by 2 runs...2 runs that we should have stopped.

Trust me I know that we could have done more to win and it isn't all the umpires but it is really hard in a games like that to know that we could have won and there were so many missed obvious calls...The other coach has even offered to replay the game because he feels like he stole it from us...obviously this won't happen...league don't want to pay for it.

I guess my two questions are...what could he have done to fix that first call when he knew it was wrong...and shouldn't he declare "batter out" on dropped 3rd strike?
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 12:34pm
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The answer to your question #1 is yes he could have fixed it by calling the runner out that ended up on second.

A better tactic on your part should have been to file a protest based on his rule interpretation. This needs to be done immediately prior to another pitch. Depending on the league, protests are allowed or not and are settled right there or are heard after the game.

On question #2 - If first base is occupied with less than 2-outs and I have an obvious dropped third strike I will say loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear "Batters Out". If it was a pitch close to the dirt, the catchers reaction usually tells you the story.


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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 12:50pm
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Hey, by your own admission,your team sucked just as bad as the officials. Did you rant and rave about them?

It appears that your being confrontational and trying to show the official up, got you no where.

Try this, "Hey blue, with less than 2 out and 1st base occupied, isn't the batter out after the third strike."
If he says no, deal with it and teach the kids to respect the officials, even when they make mistakes.

Then to boot you come on the "officials Forum" looking for sympathic supporters. Not here. Did the Officials try to make a fool of you when you or your team made mistakes? Well treat them the same way. Its only a game, get over it.
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 02:13pm
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Wow...

First of all, I chose to try not to show them up and deal with it ona time out conversation until he yelled at me. That's where it got bad. It would have remained calm...trust me I've dealt with bad calls before and yet to be thrown out...however when a guy holding an umpire position trys to yell and show me up it ain't going to work. Second I did not say my team sucked as bad as the officials...quote something in my first post saying that and you've got me. I did say that there were things we could have done to win the game that didn't happen...a few errors.

"Hey blue, with less than 2 out and 1st base occupied, isn't the batter out after the third strike"
That was pretty close to my first line to him. Until a parent yelled out "Find it in the rule book" and the ump got it my face...

I talked to the offical between innings and I said "Look man I know this is a rough job. And I'm sure you are doing your best and we appreciate it. I realize you will muff some calls, but when you do could you try to fix things?" He appreciated my understanding and admitted that he could have fixed it...I think that is pretty respectful after the fact...but if he wants to yell and try to show me up then it aint goin over to well. A lot of umpires can handle a conversation over a call and let me know what they saw. You seem probably just like this guy...just screem and holler when you screw up a call and work your way around trying to fix it. You are probably one of those umpires who blames everything on everyone else and can't handle admitting you are wrong.

"Hey, by your own admission,your team sucked just as bad as the officials. Did you rant and rave about them?"
Yes, Sir. My team got an earful when they kept throwing the ball after they should have just thrown it to the pitcher. However I didn't feel this was the place to let you guys know how I got onto the players. I thought this is where I could find out if the umpire was required to call the batter out or if I should just tell my catcher to assume that since he caught it the guy is out...now before you jump all over me...could you think about the question at hand? I'm pretty over the game by now but this is something that's been bugging me as to what I tell my catcher. You are just like a lot of umpires...work your way around the question with BS.

Now, Thank you Rick you somewhat answered my questions.
With Question #2 then...If my catcher catches it just have him throw it back to the pitcher probably and that lets the ump know he caught it?

And then just to kinda follow up on the protest thing...here it costs $50...and it takes weeks to get it handled...it isn't woorth it and that's probably why it is designed that way.
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 02:53pm
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Ump out of Line

CDcoach this is a great example of what is wrong with minor baseball today to many umpires have their nose way to high when it comes to dealing with coaches. As an umpire and a coach the only thing I would have done differently when he asked you to show him the rule was to tell him that you didn't have one on you but to check with his partner to make sure they were both on the same page if the outcome didn't change then protest. I would also let the league that you coach in, the circumstances as to what happened hopefully they will deal with it so that this will not happen to another team. Remember never to pull a rule book or indicator on an umpire even if he asks for it, many times he will bait you into an ejection.
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 02:54pm
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"You are probably one of those umpires who blames everything on everyone else and can't handle admitting you are wrong."

Your so far from the truth, it hurt me to paste and copy the above.

Do you really think I'm stupid, your going to instruct your catcher to throw down everytime, because one umpire made a mistake? Thats like telling me you want to tell your pitcher how to adjust if I don't call a strike and you think it should have been one. "Where was that Blue".

Not in the strike zone coach!!

Sorry , no sympathy here.
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 03:54pm
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Coach....

Umpires have a DUTY to call the game according to the RULES governing that game - OBR/FED/NCAA/modifications of the same - and they have a RESPONSIBILITY to follow generally accepted practices in the decisions on JUDGEMENT calls. If an umpire makes a bad judgement call and is unwilling to reverse it, you have no recourse. If he/she boots a RULE call and is unwilling to reverse it, you have the option of filing a protest. From what you've said, the protest process is difficult in your league, and I empathize. However, that IS your only choice in this instance. According to the RULE, your UIC blew it.
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Old Wed Jun 11, 2003, 04:10pm
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"Do you really think I'm stupid, your going to instruct your catcher to throw down everytime, because one umpire made a mistake?"
No however what the umpire said was that the catcher should have known he caught it and didn't have to wait for his call. I've always told my catcher that if the ump doesn't say "batter's out" you gotta make the throw. Now the ump kinda changes that and my questions was...Is the ump responsible for making the call...you were the only one to act like it was a crime so far. Everyone else seems to say that the umps are responsible for the call. Once again you are probably one who feels he is responsible for nothing in a game and that is sad.

"Do you really think I'm stupid"
Origonally no, I thought you were just a hard headed ump who couyldn't handle any questioning and criticism. "Thats like telling me you want to tell your pitcher how to adjust if I don't call a strike and you think it should have been one. "Where was that Blue"" But after that analogy you got me leaning towards other.
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 12:04am
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Is this attitude representative of many of you?

Quote:
Originally posted by jicecone
Hey, by your own admission,your team sucked just as bad as the officials. Did you rant and rave about them?

It appears that your being confrontational and trying to show the official up, got you no where.

Try this, "Hey blue, with less than 2 out and 1st base occupied, isn't the batter out after the third strike."
If he says no, deal with it and teach the kids to respect the officials, even when they make mistakes.

Then to boot you come on the "officials Forum" looking for sympathic supporters. Not here. Did the Officials try to make a fool of you when you or your team made mistakes? Well treat them the same way. Its only a game, get over it.

This is the first time I have felt compelled to respond to one of the posted responses. I am suprised that this hostile and offensive attack on a coach, following the coach's reasonable frustration and respectful attempt at correcting an umpire who made an important mistake about a basic rule, (and then the coach was treated disrespectfully by the ump) was not met with apologies by other less , more respectful umpires that use this forum. Where are you guys? Was this guy correct, and speaking for all of you, with THIS type of attitude?
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 07:31am
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What do you call a Medical Student that graduated with the worst grades in school? Doctor.

The same goes for officials, coaches and players in athletic events. Some are more conversant with the rules, better game management skills, etc. than others.

Obviously there were better ways to have handled the situations cited in this thread than what actually occured.

From my own experiences, I have learned that when a rule is in question, and it's difficult or impossible to protest, a better course of action is to tell the coach, "Maybe I've got it wrong but that's what I'm ruling. I'll check my rule book after the game so I'll get it right the next time." (Or something to that effect anyhow.)

I have also allowed a coach in one instance (who actually was more aware of the rule than I was) to calmly bring out his rule book and show me the rule. He knew the exact reference and where to find it; so there was no delay of game and a problem was quickly averted. (Had to do with a DH being required to bat one time before being replaced by a pinch hitter.)

Hopefully in the instances in this thread, the umpire(s) now have learned something from the experience and can go on. And the coaches too.
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 07:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by CDcoach
Wow...I thought I had seen the worse but these guys were bad.

Last night we were in a close game and these umpires really seemed to be working against me...I know better than that, but all the bad calls seemed to come our way. Even the other coach told me that one of his parents must of paid the guys to call a game like that.

Here is the situation that got me fired up...
R1 and R2 1 out, 2-2 count, stirke three hits the ground. BR takes off for first which sent a chain reaction for R1 and R2 to advance. My catcher holds the ball for a few seconds waiting for BR to be called out he is called safe at first. My catcher guns to 3rd to pick-off R2. They score two runs on error by F5. I come out call time and ask that the batter now on second should be out. He tells me bases must be loaded on a dropped third strike for him to be called out. I said no...you've got to be kidding. He gets really loud and tells me to show him in the rule book...he got way out of line for an umpire. I pulled out my OBR rule book start turning for rule 6. He then tells me to leave the field...I tihnk he is realizing his mistake. I show him the rule anyways and he still won't change it. Could he have fixed it?

Then next inning it is a caught third strike with R3 and BR goes running to first. My catcher holds of R3 thinking BR is out...PU doesn't call him out. F2 throws to 1st and then PU says "He's out". R3 scores...we complain that he should have called him out long before he did. He told us the catcher should know...based on previous events that game the catcher isn't sure he knows anything with this ump behind the plate. Isn't it his responsibility to let us know catch or no catch on strike 3?

And then the BU was that laziest guy out there...wouldn't move to make a call...missed three obvious outs at third base that even thier base coach grimaced from. We lost by 2 runs...2 runs that we should have stopped.

Trust me I know that we could have done more to win and it isn't all the umpires but it is really hard in a games like that to know that we could have won and there were so many missed obvious calls...The other coach has even offered to replay the game because he feels like he stole it from us...obviously this won't happen...league don't want to pay for it.

I guess my two questions are...what could he have done to fix that first call when he knew it was wrong...and shouldn't he declare "batter out" on dropped 3rd strike?
IMO, the safe call on B1 could of, and should of, been changed. But, that doesn't change the fact that both runners still would of scored on the error by F5. Both runs still would of scored accept now there are 2 outs.

In your second situation, I agree that the catcher should know the situation on the field. A caught third strike the batter is out! Why do you need to wait for the Ump to verify that he is out? Let the BR go to first, who cares, he's running for nothin'.

As far as your questions, (1)you had a protestable situation if ruling wasn't changed on B1. (2)I personally make it clear (if I realize it, because sometine I space it out) "Batter is out, Batter is out"! It also helps my partner realize that we have a no-force situation if other runners choose to steal.

I had a situation. R1 and R2 with 1 out. B4 swings and a misses strike 3 in the dirt. Runners are going on the pitch. My partner made no voice call declaring batter out, and me thinking that was out 3, I call R1 out at third on a force play. WRONG. After all players left the field I realized my mistake and brought everyone back out with runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs.

Some mistakes will be made and should be corrected when possible, but I have to agree with other posters that showing up an Umpire isn't the best way to get that done.

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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 09:35am
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"This is the first time I have felt compelled to respond to one of the posted responses. I am suprised that this hostile and offensive attack on a coach, following the coach's reasonable frustration and respectful attempt at correcting an umpire who made an important mistake about a basic rule, (and then the coach was treated disrespectfully by the ump) was not met with apologies by other less , more respectful umpires that use this forum"


AND YOU GOT SNOOKERED TOO. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING QUOTES MADE IN THIS ORIGINAL THREAD AND POINT OUT TO ME WHERE A "RESPECTFULL" ATTEMPT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE UMPIRE TOOK PLACE.

"He tells me bases must be loaded on a dropped third strike for him to be called out. I said no...you've got to be kidding."

"I pulled out my OBR rule book start turning for rule 6. He then tells me to leave the field."

"we complain that he should have called him out long before he did."

"And then the BU was that laziest guy out there...wouldn't move to make a call...missed three obvious outs at third base that even thier base coach grimaced from"

This is not how you gain respect on ANY field of play.

In a latter thread he stated "I talked to the offical between innings and I said "Look man I know this is a rough job. And I'm sure you are doing your best and we appreciate it. I realize you will muff some calls, but when you do could you try to fix things?" He appreciated my understanding and admitted that he could have fixed it...I think that is pretty respectful after the fact".

Better attempt this time , but why wasn't this approach used right from the begining? Do you realize how many games we do where the coach trys to play the "Good guy, bad guy game". Your their friend, right up to the point that something doesn't go their way. When they win everthing is chummy, when they lose, we are the *******s. And truly, what is the message the coaches are sending to the players they are overseeing. DISRESPECT Isn't that more harmful than the outcome of the game?

I have coached for 10 years and officiated two sports (Baseball and Ice Hockey) for close to 20 years. I'm proud to say that I can count on my one hand the number of coaches I've tossed in the last 2 years, over 500 contests.
I may have been a little tough on the coach but, this is an "Officials Forum". The gentleman was venting. He already knew how to handle the situation the right way, by his own admission.

Now you may consider this as having an "Attitude", that is your right. I consider it as having the savy to see and tell things as they really are. That is my right.

Thank you

Jim
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 09:49am
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Lightbulb

i am a bit surprised at some of the responses by my peers, first of all.

as for the situation. it is easily correctible as long as the umpire can swallow some pride and check a rule book. in fact, doesn't the FED rule or case book suggest that an umpire ALWAYS have the rule book handy for things such as this?

Coach, you were the innocent victim of a crappy, inexpreienced, arrogant umpire. i am afraid you will deal with a lot of those in little league. good ones would rather call older kids like legion baseball because the baseball is better and the pay is more...me included. when i broke in and was not sure of rotations or how to deal with angry coaches, i may have been a bit abrasive at times out of stupidity. i would react with an attitude at times just to mimmic umps i have seen or known, but not to the same situations and as i learned more and more i was very easy to deal with. but as i learned more i didn't get into those situations anyway.

as for some of you all that have callously responded to coach, geez let him ask a question or two. i can appreciate coaches that want to know the "manner" in which to approach an umpire.

coach, again, deal with what you have got. i know where i am there is a huge shortage of umpires and they take whatever "child" they can find. we used to run 14 yr old tournaments and have college umpires for a lot of the games. that was a treat for those kids, parents, and especially the coaches. however, i would never suggest that you yell back at an umpire. if the ump is the agressor you may not want to raise your voice.

on coaching your kids, do it according to the rules. if it is a caught 3rd strike everyone in the world knows it's and out. i might also suggest that you teach any kid that might catch to always know the situation that rule exists so you don't have any fiascos like that one. if an ump ends up kicking that call again, deal with it as best you can and if that still produces and unsatisfactory result you may then either pay up for protest or move on. remember that this is little league, the kids won't remember these games at all once they are older. they will recall HS and college games. oh yeah, tell the parents that too. have a good season.
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 11:13am
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" however, i would never suggest that you yell back at an umpire. if the ump is the agressor you may not want to raise your voice."
Yeah I know that but it is defineately rough when some kid is trying to yell and holler at you to just turn yor back and go when you know he is wrong....easier said than done I suppose.

""He tells me bases must be loaded on a dropped third strike for him to be called out. I said no...you've got to be kidding.""
This was again after he started in on me....I realize I should not have said what I did...but once again it can be tough when the umpire is obviously trying to make me look bad and I was out there to see if maybe he just didn't realize 1st was occupied. Once again are there similarities with you two? Trying to make me look bad while I'm just asking a simple question that most have answered for me...

""I pulled out my OBR rule book start turning for rule 6. He then tells me to leave the field.""
He asked to see it in the rulebook in an attempt to put an end to the situation...I was trying to show him...nothing disrespectful IMO. I've been told now that no matter what I shouldn't bring my rulebook on the field even if he asks for it...but he sure didn't say that then...

""And then the BU was that laziest guy out there...wouldn't move to make a call...missed three obvious outs at third base that even thier base coach grimaced from""
Once again I don't see how it is disrespect...I did ask him to try and get a closer look on those close onse after the game and I'm sure he heard some groans from people during the game...but what else can someone expect when even the other team is suprised he is really safe.

Now just a followup. I met these two guys again in the umpires office at the park. They immeadiately apoligized and they were pretty sure they were wrong on a lot of the stuff I questioned. Chief umpire was standing there and we all went over some of those rules. After that me and the PU had kinda our own conversation where he apoligized and he said he was having and awful day and he was sure he didn't help anything. He also told me that he didn't want to get yelled at for correcting that play...seems odd to me. So basically it's over now and he has imporved from it and I've defineately learned a little from it.
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 12:07pm
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I'm convinced (from what I've read) there's plenty of "guilt" to go around.

I'm glad things all worked out. I'm betting you and the umps will be great friends and acquaintenances from this point on.

Jerry

P.S. As Dave Bergman of the 1984 Detroit Tigers tells me . . . "We're all in this together. It's all a learning experience for the kids." I have to agree; none of us are gonna get rich being at odds. After all; why are we doing what we're doing?
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