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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Team Control Ends ...
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4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead. I got sidetracked by the throwin ending.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed." |
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Fumble ...
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4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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The Throwin Ended ...
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2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul. Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws. 2014-15 Points Of Emphasis Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred. In my play, the throwin ended. 4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds. b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7. c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion. I know that I'm being too literal, but is this yet another example of the NFHS using inexact language? Not only does the NFHS state "during a throw-in", but it also states "when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal". Also, the NFHS states "exists", not "begins". In my play the throw-in had ended, and the ball was no longer at the disposal of the thrower-in (and team control had not yet been established inbounds). 4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 10, 2020 at 01:06pm. |
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Passed Among Teammates ...
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4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. 4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 10, 2020 at 02:21pm. |
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The Coup De Grâce ...
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4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 11, 2020 at 10:20am. |
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It's just such a poorly written rule. You are correct in pointing out that a throw-in ends when it touches anybody inbounds. And if team control exists for the purposes of the throw-in only, they have not clearly defined what the status of the ball is once it touches or deflects off an offensive player.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Stupid NFHS ...
Changing team control from only inbounds to also include out of bounds during a throwin, coupled with the exception for backcourt violations during a throwin, has to be the biggest fiasco ever by the NFHS. If not ever, than certainly during the forty years that I've been officiating.
I think that it's a good rule change, I get it, but the NFHS has had trouble putting in writing, with at least two Points of Emphasis, and several annual interpretations, that still don't do a great job of fully explaining the rule, and that's topped off with the cherry of not putting it permanently into the actual rule book for everyone, especially rookies, to see every year. These Points of Emphasis and annual interpretations are simply "patches" and aren't really permanent fixes. Stupid NFHS. Why not make the throwin team control legal for everything (say that the thrower has player control) with no exception for backcourt? Throwins from a frontcourt sideline or endline can only be legally passed into the frontcourt. Many ignorant fans already think that that's the actual rule.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 11, 2020 at 05:33pm. |
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In fact, we really have no need to the distinction between player control fouls and team control fouls and haven't had since they changed the penalty for team control fouls to be the same as player control fouls so many years ago. Instead, eliminate the definitions of both team control foul and player control foul and create a new foul type called "offensive" foul. You'd keep the definitions of team control and player control because they have other implications. Just change the foul definition. I propose something like this: Where the penalty for an "offensive" foul would be not shots and possession to the offended team as is currently done for both the player control and team control fouls.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Ball at disposal = control anyway, because once the ball is at a teams disposal, only that team may request and be granted timeout (for a live-ball timeout request to be honored, it must come from the team in control of the ball + player control, if the ball is inbounds). |
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NFHS 4-19-7: "...A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds." |
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Cherry On Top Of The Sundae ...
Nice.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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