Team control throwin. Foul purposes only

[BillyMac]

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.

Thank you for confirming what I believed to be true.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

I got sidetracked by the throwin ending.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I got sidetracked by the throwin ending

Here's what sidetracked me:

2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul.

Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws.

2014-15 Points Of Emphasis
Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

In my play, the throwin ended.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds,
except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion.

I know that I'm being too literal, but is this yet another example of the NFHS using inexact language?

Not only does the NFHS state "during a throw-in", but it also states "when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal".

Also, the NFHS states "exists", not "begins".

In my play the throw-in had ended, and the ball was no longer at the disposal of the thrower-in (and team control had not yet been established inbounds).

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion.

For those that agree with Camron Rust's interpretation (that may include me), here's something that you may hang your hat on:

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For those that agree with Camron Rust's interpretation (that may include me), here's something that you may hang your hat on:

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

FWIW

Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."

Good point. Thanks.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.