Personal Or Technical ???

[bucky]

I tried to keep up with the thread but fear I have failed. It sounds as if there was a question regarding continuous motion (CM). CM, according to the NFHS definition, only applies when there is a foul on the defense, not the offense. Wasn't the original premise that the discussion was surrounding a foul on the offense? And therefore, CM would not be relevant?

(Isn't this what Raymond stated?)

So, before release, do not count the basket. After the release do not count the basket. Correct?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Wasn't the original premise that the discussion was surrounding a foul on the offense? And therefore, CM would not be relevant?

(Isn't this what Raymond stated?)

So, before release, do not count the basket. After the release do not count the basket. Correct?

I am not even sure when that came part of the discussion. This was about whether we can give a flagrant intentional or flagrant technical. Then, as usual, Billy starts arguing with himself, posting over and over things that were not relevant to the original conversation, adding more elements to the play or situation that was not discussed until he brought it up. So if you are confused, we are all confused.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Wasn't the original premise that the discussion was surrounding a foul on the offense? And therefore, CM would not be relevant?

Continuous motion should never have come into this caseplay at all, not because the foul was by the offense, but because the ball had already been released (caseplay stated airborne shooter and by definition an airborne shooter has already released the ball (thanks billyu2)), thus no continuous motion (continuous motion ends when the ball is clearly in flight).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not even sure when that came part of the discussion.

Originally Posted by bucky

Is it possible for airborne shooter A1 to commit a foul which would not be player control? RULING: Yes. The airborne shooter could be charged with an intentional or flagrant personal foul or with a technical foul.

Originally Posted by billyu2

And if the try went in, it would count.

So we all know who to blame, here's where it all began to deteriorate and fall apart.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the ball was released before the foul.

Yep, we all know who to blame, BillyMac, because he didn't fully know the rulebook definition of an airborne shooter.

Sure, BillyMac is probably both extremely handsome and very intelligent, but he really needs to work on his Rule 4 definitions.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

As I see it there are two different situations that can occur:


Play 1: A1 deliberately throws a Live Ball at B1 and the: a) Ball hits B1 or b) Ball does not hit B1.

Play 2: A1, while holding a Live Ball, uses the Ball to deliberately push B1.


Play 1, in both (a) and (b), is easy to adjudicate: A1 has committed a Technical Foul (TF) for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. It is my opinion that A1's actions meet the definition of a Flagrant Foul (FF). I consider A1's actions no different from swinging a closed fist at B1, whether A1 does or does not make contact with B1, and therefore is a Flagrant Technical Foul (FTF).


Regarding Play 2, I guarantee that if one does an Advanced Search of the Basketball Forum he/she will find that I have been on record numerous times that I consider this a Player Control Foul (PCF). Having said that...

A1) I have seen my share of Third World Plays during my 46 years of officiating but Play 2 is one of them that I have not seen (at least I do not remember seeing).

A2) I used the word "deliberately" in my description of Play 2 because as I have read through this Thread I have decided to re-evaluate my thinking concerning Play 2. I no longer consider this to be a PCF by A1, in fact I do not consider this a PF by A1.

A3) Why have I changed my RULING? A1 is holding a Live Ball and B1 attempts to knock the Ball out of A1's hands and does so by slapping A1's hand while it is in contact with the Ball. By Rule, this is not a PF by B1 because A1's hand is considered to be the Ball and not part of A1's body. Therefore, A1 pushing B1 with the Ball cannot be a PF by A1; it has to be a TF for Unsportsmanlike Conduct and depending upon the severity of A1's push or if B1 retaliates it could be an ITF or a FTF.


MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Regarding Play 2, I guarantee that if one does an Advanced Search of the Basketball Forum he/she will find that I have been on record numerous times that I consider this a Player Control Foul (PCF). Having said that...

A1) I have seen my share of Third World Plays during my 46 years of officiating but Play 2 is one of them that I have not seen (at least I do not remember seeing).

A2) I used the word "deliberately" in my description of Play 2 because as I have read through this Thread I have decided to re-evaluate my thinking concerning Play 2. I no longer consider this to be a PCF by A1, in fact I do not consider this a PF by A1.

I have actually seen this happen on some level, rather early in my career. I saw a player hit a player with the ball making a normal movement and the ball is what hit the player in the face. We did not call anything because the ball handler was not trying to hit the player in the face at all. It was very incidental. The coach wanted us to call a foul, but we did not see it that way unless he was trying to hit the opponent. And that would have only been a Technical foul in our mind.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I saw a player hit a player with the ball making a normal movement and the ball is what hit the player in the face. We did not call anything because the ball handler was not trying to hit the player in the face at all. It was very incidental. The coach wanted us to call a foul, but we did not see it that way unless he was trying to hit the opponent.

One officiates long enough and one can see or hear about some crazy things.

These are the stories that veteran officials orally pass down to young'uns around a blazing campfire.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Arriving late to the party.