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Continuous Motion ...
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I don't think that continuous motion (before the ball is released) applies to a foul by the offense, I believe that the ball becomes dead immediately. I'm not sure, would like some confirmation.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 28, 2020 at 12:01pm. |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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When Pigs Fly ...
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The situation is, after all, extremely rare, a ball handler with player control and in that act of shooting (airborne shooter), committing an intentional, flagrant, or technical foul. Don't see those every day. Never observed one in forty years. Probably die before I see my first. After release, count the basket. Before the release, don't count the basket. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 28, 2020 at 03:05pm. |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Moot Points ...
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So in the casebook play it is automatically assumed that the ball has been released (definition of airborne shooter), so the basket will count. My scenario of the ball not being released was a moot point. I learned that an airborne shooter doesn't begin with the shooter becoming airborne, but only begins when the shot is released by an "airborne shooter" (generic Funk & Wagnalls definition) Thanks billyu2. Since the ball has been released in the casebook play, continuous motion is also a moot point (the ball is clearly in flight), but let's explore it anyway. The ball becomes dead, or remains dead when a foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs. Exception: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when (a foul) occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket. Unless I'm missing something (so what else is new?), the ball becomes dead with a foul by the offense, and as I said, continuous motion wouldn't apply (even if the foul was before the release, which it wasn't).
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 29, 2020 at 10:59am. |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Little Bird ...
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It turns out that the little bird in my head telling me that I shouldn't put my Good Housekeeping Seal Of Approval on my full interpretation was correct (my conclusions turned out to be correct, the way I got there was not). Really glad that I didn't bet my house on my full interpretation.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 29, 2020 at 10:54am. |
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I tried to keep up with the thread but fear I have failed. It sounds as if there was a question regarding continuous motion (CM). CM, according to the NFHS definition, only applies when there is a foul on the defense, not the offense. Wasn't the original premise that the discussion was surrounding a foul on the offense? And therefore, CM would not be relevant?
(Isn't this what Raymond stated?) So, before release, do not count the basket. After the release do not count the basket. Correct?
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If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist? |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Airborne Shooter ...
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Yep, we all know who to blame, BillyMac, because he didn't fully know the rulebook definition of an airborne shooter. Sure, BillyMac is probably both extremely handsome and very intelligent, but he really needs to work on his Rule 4 definitions.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 30, 2020 at 01:47pm. |
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Arriving late to the party.
As I see it there are two different situations that can occur:
Play 1: A1 deliberately throws a Live Ball at B1 and the: a) Ball hits B1 or b) Ball does not hit B1. Play 2: A1, while holding a Live Ball, uses the Ball to deliberately push B1. Play 1, in both (a) and (b), is easy to adjudicate: A1 has committed a Technical Foul (TF) for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. It is my opinion that A1's actions meet the definition of a Flagrant Foul (FF). I consider A1's actions no different from swinging a closed fist at B1, whether A1 does or does not make contact with B1, and therefore is a Flagrant Technical Foul (FTF). Regarding Play 2, I guarantee that if one does an Advanced Search of the Basketball Forum he/she will find that I have been on record numerous times that I consider this a Player Control Foul (PCF). Having said that... A1) I have seen my share of Third World Plays during my 46 years of officiating but Play 2 is one of them that I have not seen (at least I do not remember seeing). A2) I used the word "deliberately" in my description of Play 2 because as I have read through this Thread I have decided to re-evaluate my thinking concerning Play 2. I no longer consider this to be a PCF by A1, in fact I do not consider this a PF by A1. A3) Why have I changed my RULING? A1 is holding a Live Ball and B1 attempts to knock the Ball out of A1's hands and does so by slapping A1's hand while it is in contact with the Ball. By Rule, this is not a PF by B1 because A1's hand is considered to be the Ball and not part of A1's body. Therefore, A1 pushing B1 with the Ball cannot be a PF by A1; it has to be a TF for Unsportsmanlike Conduct and depending upon the severity of A1's push or if B1 retaliates it could be an ITF or a FTF. MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Better Never Than Late ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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Or It Could Happen In One's First Game ...
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These are the stories that veteran officials orally pass down to young'uns around a blazing campfire.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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