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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 11:55am
Livin' The Dream
 
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Clock and Lights don't match up. Buzzer Beater.

Iowa HS Substate game. .6 secs left on clock. Is it physically possible to catch the ball in the air, return to floor and shoot it with .6 on the clock. I have watched this many times, many angles, and the buzzer sounds after he releases, the time on the clock shows zero and i believe it is in his hand, BUT, the light on the backboard isn't on....this is a no win for the official having to make this call. Either way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9juVI9eXWQ
here are the coaches comments after the game from local tv station
https://kwwl.com/2020/03/03/west-boy...ubstate-final/
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 11:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw1ns View Post
Iowa HS Substate game. .6 secs left on clock. Is it physically possible to catch the ball in the air, return to floor and shoot it with .6 on the clock. I have watched this many times, many angles, and the buzzer sounds after he releases, the time on the clock shows zero and i believe it is in his hand, BUT, the light on the backboard isn't on....this is a no win for the official having to make this call. Either way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9juVI9eXWQ
here are the coaches comments after the game from local tv station
https://kwwl.com/2020/03/03/west-boy...ubstate-final/
By rule there is nothing preventing a catch and shoot with 0.6 on the clock. If he beat the LED lights, then he is good, barring an obvious timing error. If there is not a light, the sounding of the horn is controlling for NFHS games. Zero showing on the clock has no meaning in contests without video review.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 12:17pm
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You are correct that the numbers on the clock do not mesh with the LED lights on the backboard and the horn.

Your first link shows a video from the side of the court which clearly shows the ball in flight prior to the red lights coming on and the horn sounding. The quality is not sharp enough to show the numbers on the clock though, so this one can’t inform us if the clock started properly on the catch.

However, from the video posted along with the news broadcast story in your second link, I was able to determine three things as the game clock on the side of the arena is clearly visible above the players involved in the try: (1.) the clock started properly when the inbounds player caught the ball. I was able to freeze the video with the player still coming down, the ball in his hands, and 0.5 on the clock. (2.) the ball is still in his hands when this clock reaches 0.0 as I was again able to pause the video at such a frame after he elevated to try for goal. (3.) the horn sounds after the ball is released on the video and I cannot see the LED lights on the backboard as they are out of the picture from this angle.

This play is SUPER close! Without video review it is not possible to know with certainty, but the losing team certainly did not get screwed. Nothing egregious here.

With video review, this has to ruled a good 3-point basket as the first video shows no timing error occurred and the second confirms that the release preceded the light coming on. It is unfortunate that the numbers on the clock don’t mesh with the lights and horn.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Thu Mar 05, 2020 at 02:28pm.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 12:49pm
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I do know this, the official that made the call is a quality veteran and will be working a State Final in the next few days for the girls tourney . The losing is school is petitioning the IAHSAA for a video review of the play trying to get their team in the tourney. I don't think they will have much luck!
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 02:34pm
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coach...

The state will undoubtedly reprimand the coach for making those comments. There's a way to express displeasure - that wasn't it.
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 05:00am
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It seems to me that the LED lights malfunctioned. The clock was at 0.0 and the horn was sounding well before the lights came on. That isn't proper function. The ball was still on the hand when the clock read 0.0 and the horn sounded but the backboard lights were not on.

Going by the lights, the shot would be good. However, going by the horn and/or the clock, the shot would not be good. There is no right answer on this one as some part of the equipment messed up, not the officials.
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 09:16am
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2-12-7, "If a red/LED light is used, the light is the official expiration of playing time."
So, is it our responsibility to confirm what some perceive to be an equipment malfunction? Or do we "call it by the light", and "call it by the horn" if no light, then let others sort it out later whether or not the system wasn't was not right? Does "clock malfunctioned" clause in 5-10-2 give us the task of ruling according to whatever technical knowledge we can bring to bear on the situation for which we have no video review?
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
2-12-7, "If a red/LED light is used, the light is the official expiration of playing time."
So, is it our responsibility to confirm what some perceive to be an equipment malfunction? Or do we "call it by the light", and "call it by the horn" if no light, then let others sort it out later whether or not the system wasn't was not right? Does "clock malfunctioned" clause in 5-10-2 give us the task of ruling according to whatever technical knowledge we can bring to bear on the situation for which we have no video review?
Call it by the light, unless it's obvious on the court that the light was "late" / malfunctioning -- and, based on the descriptions in this thread I don't think its the case (I didn't watch the video)
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 10:25am
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I want to know what "knowing who the officials were" has to do with anything? I cannot speak for them, but in our state the host school always knows who the officials are before the contests and if that means almost nothing. And there are sites in my state that self-report our assignments. So anyone can know if you do enough research.

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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 11:50am
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Scapegoating

"I want to know what 'knowing who the officials were' has to do with anything?"

Translated: "Who can I blame?"
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 04:26pm
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When discussing conflict of the video showing 0.0 and the light not being on, there are a couple of things to consider.

First is that the clock only reads tenths of a second, so from a precision standpoint, we have to accept that the clock is only 100% accurate for a small percentage of the game. Most timing systems change once there is anything less than the amount of time previously shown on the clock. For example, when the clock is initially started at the beginning of a quarter, it immediately switches to 7:59, although in reality in the instant the clock is started the actual time remaining in the quarter is closer to 8:00 than it is to 7:59. In fact that is the case for the first half second of each quarter. Mathematically this same principle applies to the last 0.1 of a game as well. On a clock that reads only tenths of a second, it will show 0.0 once there is less than 0.1 on the clock, although the clock is still technically closer to 0.1 (0.09) than 0.0.

The second thing to consider is the quality of the video in terms of frames per second (fps). If the video was recorded at 30fps (reasonable to assume it would be in this ballpark), each frame would be .0333 seconds, and thus the final 0.1 of the game would be comprised of at least 3 frames if timing of the first frame of the last 0.1 synced up with exactly with when the clock changed. In all likelihood, this would not be the case and there would be parts 4 different frames covering the last 0.1 seconds. With that in mind, the point is that you have to look at the right frame to actually capture the end of the game. There will be multiple frames that will show 0.0 on the clock but in actuality there will still be hundredths/thousandths of a second left.

This is the long, math-based explanation for why even with video replay, the light should be used to determine when the game has ended.
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 04:47pm
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Test Drive ...

Anybody want to set the clock at ten seconds and run it down to see if the light'horn/clock malfunctions again?
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Old Sat Mar 07, 2020, 05:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerSooner View Post
When discussing conflict of the video showing 0.0 and the light not being on, there are a couple of things to consider.

First is that the clock only reads tenths of a second, so from a precision standpoint, we have to accept that the clock is only 100% accurate for a small percentage of the game. Most timing systems change once there is anything less than the amount of time previously shown on the clock. For example, when the clock is initially started at the beginning of a quarter, it immediately switches to 7:59, although in reality in the instant the clock is started the actual time remaining in the quarter is closer to 8:00 than it is to 7:59. In fact that is the case for the first half second of each quarter. Mathematically this same principle applies to the last 0.1 of a game as well. On a clock that reads only tenths of a second, it will show 0.0 once there is less than 0.1 on the clock, although the clock is still technically closer to 0.1 (0.09) than 0.0.

The second thing to consider is the quality of the video in terms of frames per second (fps). If the video was recorded at 30fps (reasonable to assume it would be in this ballpark), each frame would be .0333 seconds, and thus the final 0.1 of the game would be comprised of at least 3 frames if timing of the first frame of the last 0.1 synced up with exactly with when the clock changed. In all likelihood, this would not be the case and there would be parts 4 different frames covering the last 0.1 seconds. With that in mind, the point is that you have to look at the right frame to actually capture the end of the game. There will be multiple frames that will show 0.0 on the clock but in actuality there will still be hundredths/thousandths of a second left.

This is the long, math-based explanation for why even with video replay, the light should be used to determine when the game has ended.
Long explanation, but not really right. There was a very perceptable delay between the clock, the horn, and the LED lights....nothing that could be explained by rounding. Plus, your understanding of the clocks is not generally correct. Most modern game clocks will only show 0.0 when it is truly 0. They started to change a long time ago exactly for situations like this.
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2020, 04:39pm
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Always felt that LED lights are great but how can you see the shooter and lights at the same time. A least going by the buzzer you can stay with the shooter and make a judgement based on what you see and when you hear the horn
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2020, 06:14pm
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Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
Always felt that LED lights are great but how can you see the shooter and lights at the same time. A least going by the buzzer you can stay with the shooter and make a judgement based on what you see and when you hear the horn
A lot of the time you can see the light. Just like anything it depends on where the official is and the ball. But it is not usually totally out of sight by the calling official or someone on the crew. It is harder to see the clock if the clock is never anywhere else but on the wall or ceiling.

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