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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 12:03pm
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Act of Shooting (and continous motion)

Are the rules/definitions/fundamentals different between NFHS, NCAA-W, and NCAA-M?
4-41, 4-11, Fundamental 17
I see officials ruling 'No Shot' even after the player has picked up/stopped the dribble while driving to the basket. I assume they are making this determination of 'no shot' based on the location of the players hands or ball.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 02:37pm
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As you well already know...Continuous motion [CM] principles allow for the completion of customary arm, hand, and footwork movements that are related to the “try for goal” [i.e., shot attempt] provided that these such movements occur AFTER the dribble has ended [i.e., been completed]. In my experience there are two garden variety types of plays that are encountered wherein the official must adjudicate based on CM principles:

Case # 1) When a Jump Shot” or “Lay Up” occurs and shooter gets fouled (e.g., hit on arm, wrist, poked in the gut/chest) in the act of shooting. The goal is scored and we award a FT (we get this call correct with 99.9% accuracy).

Case # 2) When a “dribble drive/slash” to the basket occurs and the “imminent shooter” is fouled after ending the dribble and while s/he is subsequently “taking steps towards the basket to shoot” and it’s obvious that a shot attempt is forthcoming. The tendency is call it “on-the-floor” despite the CM requirements having been met. We get this call correct less than 99.9% of the time. Why? I wondered. After many observations and conversations I reached this conclusion: Refs are reluctant to recognize and award the CM because in their mind the shooter is still “on the floor”--despite the CM requirements having been met. I'm not so sure that this is necessarily intentionally "kicking a rule" or if it is a lack of sophistication in the Ref's understanding of CM principles.

Last edited by Kansas Ref; Thu Mar 05, 2020 at 02:43pm.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 03:04pm
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The ref wants to go home. Stopping the game for a minute and shooting FT reduces his pay per minute. AND explaining the rule to the coach. If we are shooting you have to explain why he gets shots. If we aren't shooting the ball is put into play and there is no time gap to have a talk. This has been a POE and I believe it's about keeping the game going so we can go home sooner. IF you call it and your partners do not then you look like the bad guy. I think we are really bad and miss this way too much. I pregame DO not let me put it on the ground if it was clearly a shot. We get wrapped up in the foul and who fouled etc and we forget on non-obvious shooting fouls to put them on the line.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 03:15pm
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There is an NCAA-Men's case play that defines the beginning of the shooting motion. It is more restrictive than NFHS, I don't know what the NCAA-W's language is:

Act of Shooting
A.R. 120.
A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Mar 05, 2020 at 06:42pm.
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Old Thu Mar 05, 2020, 04:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There is an NCAA-Men's case play that defines the beginning of the shooting motion. It is more restrictive than NFHS, I don't know what the NCAA-W's language is:

Act of Shooting
A.R. 120.
A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then
steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot
appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion
that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act
of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or
arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or
advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)

I do not like the wording of NCAA Men's AR 120. For well over 60 years in NFHS, NCAA Men's, and NCAA Women's, a Dribbler must end his/her Dribble before the Act of Shooting can begin: In other words if the Offensive Player is Dribbling he/she cannot be in the Act of Shooting. Only once the Dribble ends can the Act of Shooting begin and that applies across the board for NFHS, NCAA Men's, and NCAA Women's.

Getting back to AR 120, I immediately interpreted the Player to not have yet ended his Dribble when he was fouled. I would prefer that AR's and CB Play's be written using the language of the Rules do describe the Situation and stop using "coach and talking head speak".

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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 04:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
The ref wants to go home. Stopping the game for a minute and shooting FT reduces his pay per minute. AND explaining the rule to the coach. If we are shooting you have to explain why he gets shots. If we aren't shooting the ball is put into play and there is no time gap to have a talk. This has been a POE and I believe it's about keeping the game going so we can go home sooner. IF you call it and your partners do not then you look like the bad guy. I think we are really bad and miss this way too much. I pregame DO not let me put it on the ground if it was clearly a shot. We get wrapped up in the foul and who fouled etc and we forget on non-obvious shooting fouls to put them on the line.
If this response had a "Like" button, I would not click on it.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There is an NCAA-Men's case play that defines the beginning of the shooting motion. It is more restrictive than NFHS, I don't know what the NCAA-W's language is:

Act of Shooting
A.R. 120.
A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)
NCAAW AR120 is on the same tiopic, but is slighlty different:

A.R. 120. A1 is dribbling the ball and while gathering the ball to end the
dribble, is fouled by B1 and the official rules a foul. After the whistle, A1 begins
the habitual motion which precedes the release of the ball on a try.
RULING: A1’s foul is not a shooting foul and when committed prior
to the bonus being in effect, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in
using the procedures in Rule 7-3.2. When the bonus is in effect, A1 is
awarded two free throws. Continuous motion does not apply when a
player is fouled while ending a dribble or securing control of the ball
in her hand(s).
(Rule 5-1.10, 7-3.2, and 8-3.1)
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 11:18am
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Let's Go To The High School Videotape ...

NFHS

4-11: Continuous Motion
ART. 1 Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and
free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any
defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual
throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when
the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2 If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal,
he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if
pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body
movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are
granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul
occurs and before the ball is in flight.
ART. 3 Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a
player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball
becomes dead immediately.

6-7-Excepton: The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in
the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is
completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may
include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when
throwing the ball at his/her basket.

6.7 COMMENT: If an opponent fouls after A1 has started to throw for goal, A1 is permitted to complete the customary arm movement; and, if A1 is pivoting or stepping when A1 or a teammate is fouled, A1 may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity, as long as A1 is still holding the ball. If A1 starts a dribble, the “continuous motion” immediately ends. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs. The continuous-motion rule applies to a free-throw try as well as to a field-goal try or tap for goal. However, in a tap for goal, the motion does not begin until the ball is touched.

The “continuous-motion” provision does not apply to batting or tipping the ball during rebounding or a jump ball. In these cases, A1 is not considered as being in the act of trying or tapping for goal. If an opponent commits a foul during this type of action before the ball is in flight, the foul causes the ball to become dead immediately. In rebounding, the ball is not always batted. It might be caught in one hand and then thrown into the basket with a snap of the wrist or fingers or touched and tapped toward the basket. Under these circumstances, an official is justified in ruling that it is a try or tap instead of a bat. Continuous motion is of significance only when there is a personal or technical foul by B after the trying or tapping motion by A1 is started and before the ball is in flight. It includes any body, foot or arm motion normally used in trying for a field goal or free throw, and it ends when the ball leaves the hand(s) on the try or tap. (4-11)
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 11:27am
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Lead A Horse To Water ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
I see officials ruling 'No Shot' even after the player has picked up/stopped the dribble while driving to the basket. I assume they are making this determination of 'no shot' based on the location of the players hands or ball.
Kudos to them for saying, "No shot", instead of, "On the floor".

Members of my local board are always being chastised for not ruling "act of shooting" when continuous motion should apply.

We also get dinged for saying, "On the floor", when continuous motion does not apply.

Some of our local members have a tough time with this play.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 01:33pm.
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