Continous/Upward Motion

[JRutledge]

What does everyone think about this play?



Peace

[just another ref]

I think it was very generous.

[Nevadaref]

The foul was definitely after he gathered!


We had a few discussions on this forum centering around the act of shooting and gathering the ball. I consistently argued that the gather had nothing to do with starting the act of shooting, but that sentiment wasn't shared by several posters.

[BillyMac]

In my high school game, he's in the act of shooting.

NFHS 4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she
is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or
stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any
activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual
throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my high school game, he's in the act of shooting.

NFHS 4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she
is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or
stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any
activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual
throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

At what point do you think that the player has started a try for goal?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

At what point do you think that the player has started a try for goal?

At around the eleven second mark, the defender first puts his hand on the ball (legal), and then his opponent's hand (legal), and then his hand moves up to the wrist (illegal contact) of the ball handler, who had already started his the usual throwing motion when the illegal contact (foul) occurred. Hey, the commentators called it a "great call", and they're always correct. They're what you call experts. Right?

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...We had a few discussions on this forum centering around the act of shooting and gathering the ball. I consistently argued that the gather had nothing to do with starting the act of shooting, but that sentiment wasn't shared by several posters.

And this one should continue to fuel that debate. He definitely had gathered when the foul occurred, but...was he on his way up at that point? Had he started his "habitual shooting motion"? I believe he did...I'd score it and shoot one.

[thedewed]

once you've gathered the ball in layup steps, it's in the act. criminal to take points off the board for the fouled time with a foul call when you can help it.

[deecee]

HS shooting. NCAAM not shooting.

[BryanV21]

I don't understand all this talk about "gathering".

Billy cited the rule, and the word "gather", nor any other form of the word, appears. It's all about the official's judgment on when the player started the shooting motion.

Some will say he started that motion, some will say he hasn't. But thinking about it in terms of when he gathered the ball seems incorrect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I don't understand all this talk about "gathering".

Definitely not a NFHS rule but, maybe, it may be, or might have been, a NCAA, or NBA, rule?

The original video was an NCAA game.

Of course, being a journeyman high school basketball official, I know more about Epistemology than I do about NCAA basketball rules.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Definitely not a NFHS rule but, maybe, it may be, or might have been, a NCAA, or NBA, rule?

The original video was an NCAA game.

Of course, being a journeyman high school basketball official, I know more about Metaphysics and Epistemology than I do about NCAA basketball rules.

This is true. My apologies.

[deecee]

NCAAM
Rule 5 Art 10
The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player's hand. the arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he may be making an attempt.

Taking a step after the foul then attempting a shot is clearly not a motion preceding the release of the ball on a try. There have also been a video or 2 released showing this exact type of play and the required adjudication is not a shooting foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I don't understand all this talk about "gathering".

Billy cited the rule, and the word "gather", nor any other form of the word, appears. It's all about the official's judgment on when the player started the shooting motion.

Some will say he started that motion, some will say he hasn't. But thinking about it in terms of when he gathered the ball seems incorrect.

Rules also have philosophies. The actual rule never defines when the continuous motion starts and never has to my understanding. But there has been illustrations over the years (Used to be a older version of S&I book).

But to me you cannot start the motion until you gather or we are splitting hairs. But this was also a college play where they have defined more as to what should be a shot with the "upward motion" philosophy. I do not like that rule, but to me this player was not in his upward motion before the foul.

Peace

[frezer11]

I think its possible, if not likely, that the officials pass on the initial foul that most are probably seeing. The last contact by 15 is, to me, clearly on the way up to the hoop, after all steps have been taken. If that's the one they decide to penalize, then I think there's no issue here. Based on when the officials react in the video, it seems likely to me that that is the call they are making.