Illegal Dribble Scenarios

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

9.5.3 SITUATION:
A1 is dribbling in backcourt and ends the dribble, but defensive pressure prevents a pass to A2. A1 then passes the ball so it touches B1. A1 recovers the loose ball in backcourt and dribbles again.
RULING: No violation. When A1's pass was touched by, or touched, another player, he/she may start a new dribble. The 10-second backcourt count continues.

Nice citation Raymond. Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That must be a FIBA interp.

FIBA 24-7 Example: A1 ends his dribble and deliberately throws the ball on B1 leg. A1 catches the ball and begins to dribble again. Interpretation: A1 double dribble violation. A1 dribble has ended as the ball was not touched by B1. It was the ball which has touched B1.

Metric "semantics" rules.

[eltonsi]

Thanks BillyMac. Yes FIBA.

https://www.fiba.basketball/rules/interpretations.pdf

Guess I learned another different interpretation between FIBA and Federation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by eltonsi

Guess I learned another different interpretation between FIBA and Federation.

Makes me glad that I only officiate high school games, only in the United States, only in Connecticut, only in my little corner of Connecticut, and only under one set of rules, NFHS rules, as God intended.

Extra bonus, because I officiate in Connecticut, almost all of my games are two person games.

Me learn alternate rule sets, interpretations, and mechanics?

Where are my car keys?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What or where is your reference from?

Rule 9-5-3 directly contradicts what you just posted. Billy posted 9-5-3 above. The case book also directly contradicts what you posted.


9.5.3 SITUATION:

A1 is dribbling in backcourt and ends the dribble, but defensive pressure prevents a pass to A2. A1 then passes the ball so it touches B1. A1 recovers the loose ball in backcourt and dribbles again.

RULING: No violation. When A1's pass was touched by, or touched, another player, he/she may start a new dribble. The 10-second backcourt count continues.

While I basically agree I would add that they are not exactly the same play. One involves a pass while the other does not. Probably comes down to semantics but perhaps that FIBA case play was meant to implicate that.

Is there another FIBA case that describes a deflected (by the defense) pass that is retrieved by the passer and dribbling is allowed?

(Pretty odd FIBA case. Consider a pass from A1 that hits an outstretched hand of the defender. The defender had is hand in the position before the ball was thrown. Since the ball hit the hand and not vice versa, can A1 not retrieve and begin dribbling? Have fun selling that call)

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A2 throwing the ball and hitting Team B's backboard is considered to be part of a dribble.

In a real game, and with A2's "passed" ball hitting Team B's backboard (that alone would be surprising), and then the ball ricocheting off of several players, I would have probably forgotten that A2 had already dribbled once.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Provided A2 is the first to touch the ball. (4.15.4C) In this situation the ball hitting the opponent's backboard means nothing because the ball then was first touched/deflected by teammate(s). A2 can recover the deflected pass and dribble without penalty. Correct?

[eltonsi]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Provided A2 is the first to touch the ball. (4.15.4C) In this situation the ball hitting the opponent's backboard means nothing because the ball then was first touched/deflected by teammate(s). A2 can recover the deflected pass and dribble without penalty. Correct?

And FIBA:

24-1 Statement. If a player deliberately throws the ball against a backboard (not attempting a legitimate shot for a field goal), this shall not be considered as a dribble.

[eltonsi]

Originally Posted by bucky

While I basically agree I would add that they are not exactly the same play. One involves a pass while the other does not. Probably comes down to semantics but perhaps that FIBA case play was meant to implicate that.

Is there another FIBA case that describes a deflected (by the defense) pass that is retrieved by the passer and dribbling is allowed?

(Pretty odd FIBA case. Consider a pass from A1 that hits an outstretched hand of the defender. The defender had is hand in the position before the ball was thrown. Since the ball hit the hand and not vice versa, can A1 not retrieve and begin dribbling? Have fun selling that call)

I cannot find another case which describes a deflection. But we have always allowed a new dribble after a deflection with a deflection signal. I agree with you that both cases are not exactly the same. It's a judgement on the player's intention.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Provided A2 is the first to touch the ball. (4.15.4C) In this situation the ball hitting the opponent's backboard means nothing because the ball then was first touched/deflected by teammate(s). A2 can recover the deflected pass and dribble without penalty. Correct?

Nice citation billyu2.

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

Correct? Let's discuss.



"Provided A1 is first to touch the ball" in 4.15.4 SITUATION C doesn't, at first blush, appear to address the "weird" situations that we have discussed in this thread.

4.15.4 SITUATION C says what it says (that can't be denied) so we must turn back to the actual wording of the rule for guidance regarding these "weird" circumstances.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Consider the ball throw at the backboard to be a bounce pass that is then touched by other players.

billyu2 is correct.

It's difficult to disagree with this very specific interpretation as described in the casebook play.

Nice post billyu2.

[WI_Ref]

Suppose a player is dribbling into traffic and just as the ball is on the way up after hitting the floor(just before dribbler touches) a defender gets a hand in just enough to deflect the ball so that the dribbler catches the ball with both hands. The dribbler continues on and puts the ball right down starting a new dribble. Is this considered a double dribble? It sure looks like one. Would the hand touching be considered loss of control since the dribbler had to grab with two hands instead of the one?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

Suppose a player is dribbling into traffic and just as the ball is on the way up after hitting the floor (just before dribbler touches) a defender gets a hand in just enough to deflect the ball so that the dribbler catches the ball with both hands. The dribbler continues on and puts the ball right down starting a new dribble. Is this considered a double dribble?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Does "deflect the ball" cause "lost control"?

[WI_Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Does "deflect the ball" cause "lost control"?

I'm not exactly sure, that's why I'm asking you fellas. In one sense, control was lost for a normal dribble, in another sense the player kept control of the ball.

For full disclosure, I called an illegal dribble but seeing this thread got me wondering

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

I'm not exactly sure, that's why I'm asking you fellas. In one sense, control was lost for a normal dribble, in another sense the player kept control of the ball. For full disclosure, I called an illegal dribble but seeing this thread got me wondering.

You have to decide, which is why you get paid the big bucks.

Was there a short-loved, slightly interrupted dribble in the middle of this play?

And please don't lose any sleep over this.

[WI_Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You have to decide, which is why you get paid the big bucks.

Was there a short-loved, slightly interrupted dribble in the middle of this play?

And please don't lose any sleep over this.

Illegal dribble it is!

No sleep lost! Ha

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

Suppose a player is dribbling into traffic and just as the ball is on the way up after hitting the floor(just before dribbler touches) a defender gets a hand in just enough to deflect the ball so that the dribbler catches the ball with both hands. The dribbler continues on and puts the ball right down starting a new dribble. Is this considered a double dribble? It sure looks like one. Would the hand touching be considered loss of control since the dribbler had to grab with two hands instead of the one?

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

Illegal dribble it is! No sleep lost!

4-15-5: . An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after -
deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

So you decided that the dribble was not interrupted, even in a generic sense (which may have included a momentarily loss of player control), by the opponent's deflection.

So no loss of "control", even in a generic sense.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

You were there, I wasn't, I could certainly live with your interpretation, but I might have ruled a legal play.

But hey, you probably get paid bigger bucks than me, I've been working middle school games (chronic injury) for the past two seasons.

Who am I to judge (apologies to Pope Francis).

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's probably how most of us have officiated it, but it's not what the rule book says.

Sleep well my friend.