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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 10:49am
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Tip with .2 seconds waved off

https://twitter.com/BadSportsRefs/st...40643811282949

This has to be one of the worst calls I've ever seen. I hate to armchair officiate, but damn was this a bad call.

What went wrong? Why did all three of them wave this off? Can anyone defend this call or justify it?
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 10:55am
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Im going to assume they got together during the TO that surely preceded this and discussed the 0.3 rule. But I think they overthought this because that sure looked like a tap to me.

College game. Rule kicked big time? Up to the assigner to decide. Might be a small suspension looming.


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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 10:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post

College game. Rule kicked big time? Up to the assigner to decide. Might be a small suspension looming.
Hell if he's generous it'll be the rest of the season. If I was the coach, I'd be demanding their heads on pikes and to burn down their homes.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:02am
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Devil's Advocate ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
This has to be one of the worst calls I've ever seen. I hate to armchair officiate, but damn was this a bad call. What went wrong? Why did all three of them wave this off? Can anyone defend this call or justify it?
I can't, but I'll be happy to speculate as the Devil's advocate.

Afterward, the referee seems to be explaining his ruling to the table, gesturing with two hands. Perhaps he believed that the tipper actually "caught" the ball with two hands?

What I find fascinating is that all three officials came to the same conclusion at the same time. Perhaps they had a discussion before the play and one of them (the alpha official) convinced the others (incorrectly) that a two handed tip was automatically going to be considered a catch and shoot?

That's all I've got your honor, my client throws himself on the mercy of the court.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 23, 2020 at 12:24pm.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:11am
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So based on all three reaching the same conclusion and seemingly at the same time they obviously had a very clear picture (or agreed sentiment) about what they were going to allow. It is a tough spot because if .3 has to be a tap there has to be a difference between a .3 tap, a .2 tap, .1 tap in terms of look and feel but rule book doesn't give you one. This crew seems to have on their own determined what they were going to allow and not allow with .2 on the clock and for whatever reason this didn't meet it.

I would be interested to see what the fallout here is if any. 1 side of the argument can clearly say .3 or less they are allowed a tap and that is tap. The official(s) can also say that with .2 on the clock they wanted to make sure that there was no catch and the control they saw with two hands constituted a catch to them.

As a netural 3rd party I feel like by the way the rule is written you have to count that. I do however concede to not being there and privy to whatever discussions are happening pre, during, post.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:22am
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History Lesson ...

There will be a quiz tomorrow.

Who’s Trent Tucker? And Why Is There A Basketball Rule Named After Him?

In high school basketball the “Trent Tucker Rule” disallows any "catch and shoot" shot taken on the court if the ball is put into play with three-tenths of a second or less left in the period. The rule was born out of an NBA game between the New York Knicks and the Chicago Bulls on January 15, 1990 at Madison Square Garden. The game was tied at 106 with one-tenth of a second left in regulation and the Knicks in possession. During a timeout called by the Knicks both teams prepared for what was seen as the only possible way the Knicks could win in regulation, an alley-oop and tip in by Patrick Ewing from an inbounding pass. When play resumed, the inbounding Knicks player, Mark Jackson, saw the alley-oop play get broken up. He proceeded to throw the ball inbounds to Trent Tucker (Minnesota 1978-1982, NBA 1982-1993) who was the only Knicks player open. Tucker then turned around and hit a three-point jump shot before the buzzer giving the Knicks the win 109-106. Replays showed that the clock had not started until Tucker's shot was already in flight. Afterward, it was determined that a player could not catch and release a shot that quickly. In 1995, the NFHS declared that a ball put into play with three-tenths of a second or less left in the period could only be scored on a tip in.


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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:24am
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For The Record ...

5-2-5: When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and threetenths
(.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain
control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could
score.


5.2.5 SITUATION A: The game clock shows three-tenths of a second or less in the third quarter when A2: (a) taps the ball; or (b) grabs A1’s missed free throw or throw-in pass and quickly shoots. In both cases the ball leaves A2’s hand(s) before the end-of-period signal and goes through A’s basket. RULING: Count the goal in (a), but not in (b).

5.2.5 SITUATION B: With three-tenths of a second or less left in the first half, Team B has been charged with only four team fouls. A1 is at the free throw line for one free throw.
A1's shot hits the ring and bounds off. A2 legally taps the ball toward the basket and is fouled by B3. The ball had left A2's hand and the foul occurred before the end-of-period signal. The tap is unsuccessful. RULING: B3's foul is considered in the "act of tapping" and will result in two free throws for A2. The lane will be cleared and the period ends after A2's free throw attempts. (4-41-1,5,6,7)

5.2.5 SITUATION C: With three-tenths of a second or less left in a tied game, each team is in the bonus. Team A has a throw-in on the end line near their basket. A1 throws the ball to A5 on the near block who catches the ball and quickly shoots. A5 is fouled by B3 just prior to the end-of-period signal. The ball goes through A's basket. RULING: Since A5 may not control the ball and attempt a try with three-tenths of a second or less, A5 cannot score a goal and is not considered in the act of shooting. However, B3's foul cannot be ignored
and is considered a common foul. A5 is awarded a one-and-one bonus free-throw situation with the lane cleared. A5's free throw attempts will determine if the game is over or if an overtime period is necessary. (4-41-6)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 23, 2020 at 11:30am.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:40am
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I wouldn't have "prolonged contact" in VB, and I don't have a "catch" in basketball.

This is from NCAAW, but I'm (sort of) certain that NCAAM is the same:

Art. 7. A tap is a type of try for field goal whereby a player attempts to score
two or three points by directing a live ball into her team’s basket with her
hand(s) or fingers without the ball coming to rest in her hand(s).

A.R. 123. With two-tenths of a second (.2) remaining on the game clock in
any period or extra period, Team A is awarded a throw-in at the division line.
A1 passes the ball to A2 who:
(1) Catches the ball with both hands while in the air and throws the ball into
her basket; or
(2) Does not catch the ball but taps it into the basket.
In both (1) and (2), the ball is in the air on the way to the basket when
the period-ending horn sounds.
RULING: (1) Illegal. When the game clock displays three-tenths
of a second (.3) or less and play is to be resumed by a throw-in
or a free throw, a player may not gain control of the ball and try
for goal. When this situation occurs, the official shall blow their
whistle and the period or extra period is over, unless an intentional
or disqualifying foul was committed on the play. Whether the try
for goal was successfully attempted before the expiration of time is
inconsequential.
(2) Legal. When the player does not possess (catch) the ball but taps
it into the basket before the period-ending horn sounds, the official
shall use replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring, when
available and located at courtside, to ascertain whether the tap (try)
was released before a reading of zeroes on the game clock.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 12:23pm
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They got it wrong, but it just as easily can happen to any of us. Easy to judge sitting behind a computer screen.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Hell if he's generous it'll be the rest of the season. If I was the coach, I'd be demanding their heads on pikes and to burn down their homes.


This is an officiating board. Be better or go away.


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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 01:27pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
They got it wrong, but it just as easily can happen to any of us. Easy to judge sitting behind a computer screen.
Oh one guy might make that mistake. The second guy might make that mistake. But all 3 coming to the same conclusion? I'm here to say, this isn't something I'd screw up.

BI, GT, OOB, fouls, sure, I've screwed all of these up. Last-second shots, even. But whether or not something was a tap vs. a shot? And if his justification (which is what it looks like when he goes to the table) was that you can't "tap" with two hands? God no. Where is that in the rule book?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
This is an officiating board. Be better or go away.
Yup, and I'm an official that works the same level as these guys. If I screwed up that badly, nothing good should come of it. I'd expect to be dismissed from the staff or lose quite a few games.

A HS coach around here lost on a shot with .3 seconds left, and he lost his mind. I'd do the same and likely go further.
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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 02:00pm
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We all can and do miss judgement calls, but there needs to be a higher level of scrutiny and accountability when an entire crew kicks a rule.

Of course, that does not justify allowing coaches to go off on us or throwing out the rules of civility. There will be no coaches "going further" on me or anybody in my crew.

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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 02:02pm
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This is a clear miss. Obviously, they got together and discussed what could happen. But I feel they did not consider that a tap can be with two hands. I think they took the "Catch and shoot" interpretation too much to heart.

And most of all they all were adamant to wave this off, which I am not an advocate for. Now if it was a clear catch and shoot, then yes I have no problem with the calling officials on the play to make a ruling. But it seems like to me they should have discussed this. The shot was obviously off in time. Unfortunately, they probably did not have a monitor either.

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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 02:12pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Hell if he's generous it'll be the rest of the season. If I was the coach, I'd be demanding their heads on pikes and to burn down their homes.
Please stop with the hyperbole. I would certainly expect some suspension for the misapplication of a rule, but not more than that. It is not like officials at this level make games with a comma on them. These might be otherwise very good officials that made a mistake that is easy in this situation to point out. But losing the rest of the season (if they have many more games anyway) is a bit much. Perspective my man, perspective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Yup, and I'm an official that works the same level as these guys. If I screwed up that badly, nothing good should come of it. I'd expect to be dismissed from the staff or lose quite a few games.

A HS coach around here lost on a shot with .3 seconds left, and he lost his mind. I'd do the same and likely go further.
I also work at this level. I would hope that if this happened to me my background would be a consideration and the other good things I have done for this assignor. And in my case, working this level is also for a person that assigns more than this level of NCAA ball. And you better be careful if you think a coach is going to go nuts on many of us even if he does not like the call.

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Old Thu Jan 23, 2020, 02:36pm
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Not ever even close to being a college official

But I do know that in HS we would make sure, either in discussion during the dead ball or signal by the appropriate official, who had last-second shot like that. Only if the other two had definitive information contrary to the calling official's take on the play would they go to them and let them know what they saw.

All that being said, why are all three officials making a call in this case? Shouldn't it just be one?
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