2019-20 NFHS: Rumors/Desires?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

It is called that because it is one of three ways to actually stop the clock.

Listed that way in the signal section of the rulebook.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

When the ball goes out of bounds everyone in the gym knows the ball is dead and the clock stops. Signaling "stop the clock" (yes, it is a "stop the clock for violation" signal) is pointless.

The NFHS doesn't say anything about jackets in the Rules. I don't think the Manual mentions them either. So that's your state's problem.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

When the ball goes out of bounds everyone in the gym knows the ball is dead and the clock stops.

How about when a ball handler's shoe just barely touches a boundary? Or when a ball just barely touches a boundary? Or when the ball just barely touches a guy wire? Does everyone in the gymnasium, including the timekeeper, know that the ball is dead and the clock stops unless an official puts a whistle on the play? Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball, maybe students in some freshman, or middle school games) know that the ball cannot legally pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction, or that the back of a backboard is out of bounds?

Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball) know that when a ball handler inadvertently touches someone who is out of bounds (another player, a photographer, a coach, an official, etc.), without gaining an advantage, it's not considered an out of bounds violation?

SC Official makes a good point, most out of bounds violations are pretty obvious, but we still need officials (with a whistle and hopefully a signal) to rule on some odd, or close, situations.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How about when a ball handler's shoe just barely touches a boundary? Or when a ball just barely touches a boundary? Or when the ball just barley touches a guy wire? Does everyone in the gymnasium, including the timekeeper, know that the ball is dead and the clock stops unless an official puts a whistle on the play? Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball, maybe students in some freshman, or middle school games) know that the ball cannot legally pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction, or that the back of a backboard is out of bounds?

Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball) know that when a ball handler inadvertently touches someone who is out of bounds (another player, a photographer, a coach, an official, etc.), without gaining an advantage, is not considered an out of bounds violation?

SC Official makes a good point, most out of bounds violations are pretty obvious, but we still need officials (with a whistle and hopefully a signal) to rule on some odd, or close, situations.

Then the whistle is sufficient.

Again, timers are not looking at our hand.

[SC Official]

My response to officials who opine and nitpick about "approved" signals such as a one- or two-finger directional instead of four...

Do you give a prelim on every foul?
Do you signal a 60-second timeout with open hands instead of fists?
Do you "score the goal" as it looks on the signal chart?
Do you signal "1 and 1" with arms outstretched to the sides?
Do you signal a blocking foul with opens hands on the hips instead of fists?

I'm sure there are plenty more. Unless you can answer "yes" to every one of these questions, shut up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

... timers are not looking at our hand.

Fully agree. Always have.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bucky

*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

In my state the captains meeting is mandatory, as well as having the coach initial the official scorebook, At the captains meeting both head coaches are required to attend

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

In my state the captains meeting is mandatory ... At the captains meeting both head coaches are required to attend

Same here in Connecticut.

A few years ago we were having some problems with head coaches attending.

Our state interscholastic sports governing body made these meetings mandatory, and if the head coach refuses to attend the pregame meeting, the referee is notify the assignment commissioner, who will contact the state interscholastic sports governing body, who will contact the school's principal.

Then, the coach gets called down to the principal's office.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

Originally Posted by OKREF

In my state the captains meeting is mandatory, as well as having the coach initial the official scorebook, At the captains meeting both head coaches are required to attend

It is mandatory here in Illinois and it is required that both coaches and captains attend the same meeting. I doubt that is going to go away even if the NF said something about this (which my understanding is not mandated by the NF or the nature of that meeting). And we must address sportsmanship in that meeting. And now we must address who is the Approved Medical Professional with the coaches also (State law).

I also do not think it is a waste of time. It is a way to set the tone and they can see you up close and as human.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is mandatory here in Illinois and it is required that both coaches and captains attend the same meeting. I doubt that is going to go away even if the NF said something about this (which my understanding is not mandated by the NF or the nature of that meeting). And we must address sportsmanship in that meeting. And now we must address who is the Approved Medical Professional with the coaches also (State law). I also do not think it is a waste of time. It is a way to set the tone and they can see you up close and as human.

JRutledge is correct that the NFHS doesn't mandate a specific meeting like many of us do, but the NFHS does require a few components of what most of us do at this meeting:

Referee’s Pregame Duties
2-2-4 Be responsible for having each team notified three minutes before each half is to begin.
2-2-5: Verify with the head coach, prior to each contest, that his/her team member’s uniforms and equipment are legal and will be worn properly, and that all participants will exhibit proper sporting behavior throughout the contest.

Official’s General Duties
2-7-1 Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.

We don't have to address the Approved Medical Professional here in Connecticut because, by state law, all coaches have to be trained in concussion protocol.

I agree with JRutledge that the meeting sets the proper tone for the game. My son, a sociologist, often talks about the importance of rituals and traditions in our culture.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is kind of like how you signal a directional point and someone cares that you did not give the signal with 4 fingers and a tucked thumb. I had someone at my State Finals games make a comment to me about my "one finger point." No one over us that weekend said a word about it, but I did get an official that knows me (and I respect BTW) send me a text about my signal.

Comes up about every five or ten years here in my little corner of Connecticut. We're encouraged to do it the proper way, years go by and some rookies, who don't know any better, and some veterans, start using one finger, so we're reminded again.

It's not a big deal, but we might as well all be consistent.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Comes up about every five or ten years here in my little corner of Connecticut. We're encouraged to do it the proper way, years go by and some rookies, who don't know any better, and some veterans, start using one finger, so we're reminded again.

It's not a big deal, but we might as well all be consistent.

We are not robots. Just like we all do not deal with coaches and players the same, why do people care if I point with one finger or two? I would feel differently if how your hand looks make the call better, but it doesn't.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are not robots ... why do people care if I point with one finger or two?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's not a big deal ...

You make a good point (get the call right and who cares about this signal) but aren't you some type of teacher/clinician/instructor in your state, or local area? Do you teach proper signals (maybe referring to the manual) or do you just let the new guys free lance, or use signals that they see their partners (both good and bad) use, or see on television in college or professional games?

To paraphrase Admiral Farragut, "Damn the NFHS Signal Chart, full speed ahead".

While there are much more important (and difficult) things for rookies to learn, don't you want them to, at least, start off using the proper signals (pretty easy to teach)? And I'm sure that there were many officials watching you work your state final. There are probably young officials who hang around to watch your regular season games as well. Don't you want to set a good example for your pupils/students/learners/members, many of whom want to emulate you?

Was, "We are not robots", your response to your friend who had the courage to offer constructive criticism to such a highly respected veteran official as yourself, while working a state final game, the ultimate form of respect for a high school official?

Full disclosure, we do a poor job here in my little corner of Connecticut of teaching player control foul signals. And nobody calls anybody out on an incorrect player control foul signal. Never. It's pretty much anything goes, just get it right, and/or sell it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You make a good point (get the call right and who cares about this signal) but aren't you some type of teacher/clinician/instructor in your state, or local area? Do you teach proper signals (maybe referring to the manual) or do you just let the new guys free lance, or use signals that they see their partners (both good and bad) use, or see on television in college or professional games?

Forgive me, but what does my position have to do with my opinion? If I am that, I do not subscribe to the position that your signal with a certain amount of fingers is as important as you being in the right position to make a call. Or why you missed that foul or why you did not have a call when your partner was blocked? Those are bigger issues than if your thumb is tucked properly.

I also teach officials that are newer a lot. They are worried about so much because we expect them to know a lot at once. It is better to get them doing some basic things first and then later add some more detail. We have officials that cannot get their arm up to stop the clock. Why would I worry about what their hand looks like on the signal when there stop clock signal is not distinguishable between a violation or a foul?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While there are much more important (and difficult) things for rookies to learn don't you want them to, at least, start off using the proper signals? And I'm sure that there were many officials watching you work your state final. Don't you want to set a good example for your pupils?

I want them to look like they half-way know they are doing on the court. No coach is going to care what their hands looks like if they will not even blow their whistle for the obvious foul or violation.

I remember my very first games and I could not get my hand up when I blew my whistle. So my partner and mentor who I worked several games with told me to just work on getting my arm up. Do not point, do not give a preliminary, just get my arm up and use my voice. When I was able to get my arm up, then add one thing to that sequence. When I got that sequence down, add one more thing to that sequence. It got to the point where each action would have a distinct and measured. A new official is not going to all of a sudden work high-level ball in a year or two for the most part. So they need to be doing things that help them grow, not have their minds spinning over details that no one at their level is going to expect them to master.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Was, "We are not robots", your response to your friend who had the courage to offer constructive criticism to such a highly respected veteran official as yourself?

The conversation was more extensive and the conversation was with a person that assigns games. I said a lot more to him and he understood my point.

If you have no noticed Billy, I am not a person that sugar coats my comments. One of the reasons I have the respect of many of my peers is I tell people what I feel will help them, not try to fit into some narrative of a book or organization that will not hire them to work any level of games. And I did not get up the latter either by doing all these very specific things that many here keep trying to act are not negotiable.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not subscribe to the position that your signal with a certain amount of fingers is as important as you being in the right position to make a call ... Those are bigger issues than if your thumb is tucked properly.

Fully agree.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we expect them to know a lot at once. It is better to get them doing some basic things first and then later add some more detail.

Agree, like pointing the proper way (or a hundred other things). I taught middle school science for over thirty years, and I've served on local board committees that teach rules and teach mechanics to new officials. Teaching isn't easy. Sometimes teachers have to pick and chose what needs to be taught in a limited amount of time to a highly varied group of learners, covering some things in great detail, and glossing over others. It's a form of teaching triage.