Final Four: Virginia v Auburn

[so cal lurker]

A bit of class from Coach Pearl:

Pearl on missed double dribble: 'Get over it'

"The biggest point I want to make, and I'm sincere in this, I'm not just saying this because it's politically the right thing to say. There is human error involved in the game. Kids make mistakes, coaches make mistakes. Yes, officials will make mistakes. That's part of the game. Get over it," he said.

"Sometimes they're going to go your way, sometimes they're not going to go your way. Are we going to give God less glory because we lost and ... only because we win? Stop. Grow up, this is part of the game. These kids taught us, I think, in many, many ways how to handle defeat. And that's a difficult thing to do for these young kids. And I'm proud of them."

[sj]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

A bit of class from Coach Pearl:

Pearl on missed double dribble: 'Get over it'

"The biggest point I want to make, and I'm sincere in this, I'm not just saying this because it's politically the right thing to say. There is human error involved in the game. Kids make mistakes, coaches make mistakes. Yes, officials will make mistakes. That's part of the game. Get over it," he said.

"Sometimes they're going to go your way, sometimes they're not going to go your way. Are we going to give God less glory because we lost and ... only because we win? Stop. Grow up, this is part of the game. These kids taught us, I think, in many, many ways how to handle defeat. And that's a difficult thing to do for these young kids. And I'm proud of them."

This would have to be one of the classiest reactions ever by a coach to a situation such as this.

[Raymond]

Was Kyle Guy's 3-pointer to make the score 12-5 a judgment call? His foot was either on the 3-point line or not, correct? Didn't one official judge it to be a 2-pointer?

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Was Kyle Guy's 3-pointer to make the score 12-5 a judgment call? His foot was either on the 3-point line or not, correct? Didn't one official judge it to be a 2-pointer?

I would not categorize that as a judgment call. Either you see it or you don't. Obviously the official that signaled it as a 2-pointer did not see it correctly, as it was overturned during the time out on video review.

However, if a block/charge call was made and reviewed, you could still have a 'split decision' as to what it was. It happens here all the time. We watch a play situation and half think it is one call, and half think it is the other. That would categorize as a judgment call.

I would hope on reviewing that 3-point shot, that everyone that sees the video would accept the visual fact that his foot was actually behind the line. Black and white, no judgment required.....

But with all the conversation on what judgment means, obviously this is strictly just my opinion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I would not categorize that as a judgment call. Either you see it or you don't. Obviously the official that signaled it as a 2-pointer did not see it correctly, as it was overturned during the time out on video review.

However, if a block/charge call was made and reviewed, you could still have a 'split decision' as to what it was. It happens here all the time. We watch a play situation and half think it is one call, and half think it is the other. That would categorize as a judgment call.

I would hope on reviewing that 3-point shot, that everyone that sees the video would accept the visual fact that his foot was actually behind the line. Black and white, no judgment required.....

But with all the conversation on what judgment means, obviously this is strictly just my opinion.

I was half being a smart-a$$ in asking that question. I think we are conflating "an official's judgment" with "a judgment call" in this conversation. An official's judgment can be wrong, as with the 3-point shot in question, but there are plays where there is not necessarily a right or wrong, just the official's judgment (ie: severity of a foul/start of the shooting motion/when a dribble ended)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I was half being a smart-a$$ in asking that question. I think we are conflating "an official's judgment" with "a judgment call" in this conversation. An official's judgment can be wrong, as with the 3-point shot in question, but there are plays where there is not necessarily a right or wrong, just the official's judgment (ie: severity of a foul/start of the shooting motion/when a dribble ended)

Thank you!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I would not categorize that as a judgment call. Either you see it or you don't. Obviously the official that signaled it as a 2-pointer did not see it correctly, as it was overturned during the time out on video review.

I would hope on reviewing that 3-point shot, that everyone that sees the video would accept the visual fact that his foot was actually behind the line. Black and white, no judgment required.....

Yes, but they had to blow up that picture to make a clear determination. The color of the shoes and the line were similar color. The official does not get a second chance live to make that call. And if the camera angle or the amount of angles were not there, they would have to go with what the official saw.

We make educated guesses all the time. HD replay has made these calls easier to dissect. The out of bounds call that appeared to be off on Virginia was so close that we might not have had any high-speed camera to ever see that but for when the game was being played. And certainly, no one is calling that a violation on TT in that situation if the Virginia player clearly knocks it out of his hand without the benefit of any replay. That was a judgment call even if it might have looked another way to the people not making the decision.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, but they had to blow up that picture to make a clear determination. The color of the shoes and the line were similar color. The official does not get a second chance live to make that call. And if the camera angle or the amount of angles were not there, they would have to go with what the official saw.

We make educated guesses all the time. HD replay has made these calls easier to dissect. The out of bounds call that appeared to be off on Virginia was so close that we might not have had any high-speed camera to ever see that but for when the game was being played. And certainly, no one is calling that a violation on TT in that situation if the Virginia player clearly knocks it out of his hand without the benefit of any replay. That was a judgment call even if it might have looked another way to the people not making the decision.

Peace

As Raymond said, you're conflating two different things.

Determining the facts of what occurred (ball touched, player location, etc.) can certainly require judgement, but once you have determined what happened, the call is generally a natural result of the facts. There is no judgement to the call itself. The actions dictate the call for everyone. You don't judge that someone was OOB but not far enough to matter.

However, given the same set of facts, there are some calls that then require judgment to handle....RSBQ, Displacement, Verticality, block/charge, etc. The call it self is where the judgement occurs....a judgment call. Given the same set of facts, officials can come to different conclusions about what should be called, if any call should be made and they can all be correct.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As Raymond said, you're conflating two different things.

He did not address me, he addressed someone else in this conversation.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Determining the facts of what occurred (ball touched, player location, etc.) can certainly require judgement, but once you have determined what happened, the call is generally a natural result of the facts. There is no judgement to the call itself. The actions dictate the call for everyone. You don't judge that someone was OOB but not far enough to matter.

However, given the same set of facts, there are some calls that then require judgment to handle....RSBQ, Displacement, Verticality, block/charge, etc. The call it self is where the judgement occurs....a judgment call. Given the same set of facts, officials can come to different conclusions about what should be called, if any call should be made and they can all be correct.

We will simply not agree on this. You can keep trying to say this all kinds of ways to try to tell me what is or is not a judgment. The reality of my position did not form on the basis of this conversation. I will still call these judgments regardless of you or others feel and the Wofford-Kentucky play that many people were convinced was a violation (but was clearly not when you slowed it down and blew up the image) was also not called. People all over the internet felt that was a missed call, but wasn't. So their judgment felt it should have been called, we just did not have the ability in that game or the producers did not have the focus to show that play blown up themselves. Or if Kentucky would have lost the game, then maybe that would have been a bigger grip about the nature of that call. Either way, those are judgment calls to me. Part of judgment is what you actually see or what you guess about. I do not know if in the Wofford-Kentucky game the used a hypothesis just like maybe they did in the Virginia-Auburn game and one was clearly wrong and the other was wrong in the eyes of those that were not on the court. Either way, these are judgments and will always be judgments even if the facts are assumed.

Peace