The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #76 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Hardly any fanboys knew that was an illegal dribble until Steratore came on air.
That's not true. My whole group saw it in real time. Most of the people around us saw it too.

Just proves that anybody can screw up and miss calls at any time. None of these guys are perfect, just like us, and calling anybody "cream of the crop" is a little over the top. Lots of good refs out there.
Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
It’s amazing to me how many holier-than-thou high school officials have the gall to act as though “I wouldn’t have missed that play or this play.”

This crew missed plays. This crew made some outstanding calls.

Yawn.
Has anybody said that yet? I haven't read that.

Some missed plays/calls. Some great calls. Just like most crews out there working across the country.

D1 officials are not gods. They sometimes get treated like it. We all know some great officials. Some of you on this board are great officials. The difference between the guys on TV and the great officials you know is how much time, money at big time camps, and kissing up at big time camps do you want to spend. That's how you get to the big time. It's not because these guys are perfect and never mess up. They proved that.

They did a great job, but also missed some things. That's almost every game in the world.
Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:20am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
How about the missed take foul after the fumble but before the double dribble?

I mean, if we're playing "what was missed" then everything should be on the table.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Your one frame shot doesn't prove it was a foul. It shows contact that in it's context doesn't rise to the level of a foul.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #79 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:23am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Your one frame shot doesn't prove it was a foul. It shows contact that in it's context doesn't rise to the level of a foul.
I don't have the video, but it's a grab and it's in the context of a take foul, which normally has a much lower threshold for a whistle.

Not saying it IS a foul, but all those saying the missed double is the only thing here, it's just not.
Reply With Quote
  #80 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:29am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I don't have the video, but it's a grab and it's in the context of a take foul, which normally has a much lower threshold for a whistle.

Not saying it IS a foul, but all those saying the missed double is the only thing here, it's just not.
I agree with you, but this is also why I do not like still pictures as ways to determine if a foul or a violation took place on its own. Because even if the jersey is being pulled, that does not mean the player was restricted. I think the play in question was more about his finger getting caught into the jersey, but nothing restricted. Also, there is a point of the game too where any little contact can be considered a foul as Auburn had fouls to give and near the end of the game. Great discussion, but also can be deceiving as well if we use a picture to say something was missed, but I get your overall point too.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #81 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 10:31am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I agree with you, but this is also why I do not like still pictures as ways to determine if a foul or a violation took place on its own. Because even if the jersey is being pulled, that does not mean the player was restricted. I think the play in question was more about his finger getting caught into the jersey, but nothing restricted. Also, there is a point of the game too where any little contact can be considered a foul as Auburn had fouls to give and near the end of the game. Great discussion, but also can be deceiving as well if we use a picture to say something was missed, but I get your overall point too.

Peace
I'm not even saying this was missed, but nobody's talking about this as if it doesn't happen. In context, since it's part of the sequence that included the double dribble, we should be at least considering it.
Reply With Quote
  #82 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 11:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,499
Rich,

Yours and Jeffs points are well taken. Even in a take-foul I didn't think that contact amounted to anything more than the defender getting crossed up and turned around. As sensitive as I was to take-fouls I still wanted to call a foul for an action that I considered an attempt at fouling.

Being too sensitive is not reasonable to the offense as they are trying to run down the clock. Officials sometimes, I felt, erred too much on the defenses side and that creates an unfair balance.

Sometimes though they would not be aware at all and then all of a sudden you get an intentional foul. Depends on the quality of the official too.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #83 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 11:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 268
What complicates it, imo, is that I think part of why they missed the illegal dribble is because they were very conscious of a take-foul and focused on that. Given that, I'm surprised they didn't put a whistle on that contact, even as marginal as it was.

In any other scenario, like say if UVA was already in the bonus, I don't think the violation is missed.
Reply With Quote
  #84 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 11:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 303
Send a message via AIM to IUgrad92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I'm not even saying this was missed, but nobody's talking about this as if it doesn't happen. In context, since it's part of the sequence that included the double dribble, we should be at least considering it.
The take foul is a judgment call. The double dribble is not a judgment call. Maybe the official saw the contact and decided to pass? We'll likely not know the answer to that, but is possible!

I think that is why some are not giving much leniency on the double dribble, as with two officials in that area, at least one needs to come up with that 'by rule' call.
__________________
When the horn sounds, we're outta here.
Reply With Quote
  #85 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 11:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Rich,

Yours and Jeffs points are well taken. Even in a take-foul I didn't think that contact amounted to anything more than the defender getting crossed up and turned around. As sensitive as I was to take-fouls I still wanted to call a foul for an action that I considered an attempt at fouling.

Being too sensitive is not reasonable to the offense as they are trying to run down the clock. Officials sometimes, I felt, erred too much on the defenses side and that creates an unfair balance.

Sometimes though they would not be aware at all and then all of a sudden you get an intentional foul. Depends on the quality of the official too.
Agree. I don't think anything was missed on that. It was just incidental contact. It wasn't an incidental illegal dribble.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #86 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 12:25pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
The take foul is a judgment call. The double dribble is not a judgment call. Maybe the official saw the contact and decided to pass? We'll likely not know the answer to that, but is possible!
How is it not a judgment call? When a dribble ends or when another begins is a judgment call. Now some judgment calls are more obvious than others and in this situation based off of looking at it closely, yes this was not as hard of judgment, but looking at it live can be all kinds of things in mind. Even stepping out of bounds is a judgment call. I do not know why people act like these things cannot involve some judgment and part of a judgment is being able to clearly see the entire picture. I think this play was unusual and probably the official assumed that the defender touched the ball or just was not sure so why call something that critical if you are not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
I think that is why some are not giving much leniency on the double dribble, as with two officials in that area, at least one needs to come up with that 'by rule' call.
This was one official's call, not two officials. The play was going away from the C. And if you called that and I ruled something, then I would have an issue with you calling something that I believe I saw.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #87 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 12:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 707
A bit of class from Coach Pearl:

Pearl on missed double dribble: 'Get over it'

"The biggest point I want to make, and I'm sincere in this, I'm not just saying this because it's politically the right thing to say. There is human error involved in the game. Kids make mistakes, coaches make mistakes. Yes, officials will make mistakes. That's part of the game. Get over it," he said.

"Sometimes they're going to go your way, sometimes they're not going to go your way. Are we going to give God less glory because we lost and ... only because we win? Stop. Grow up, this is part of the game. These kids taught us, I think, in many, many ways how to handle defeat. And that's a difficult thing to do for these young kids. And I'm proud of them."
Reply With Quote
  #88 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
How is it not a judgment call? When a dribble ends or when another begins is a judgment call. Now some judgment calls are more obvious than others and in this situation based off of looking at it closely, yes this was not as hard of judgment, but looking at it live can be all kinds of things in mind. Even stepping out of bounds is a judgment call. I do not know why people act like these things cannot involve some judgment and part of a judgment is being able to clearly see the entire picture.
That is not what "Judgement Call" means.

A "Judgement Call" is when what happens is not in question. It is when the official has to decide if what happened (and was clearly observed) is an infraction or not is (is the contact enough for a foul or not, which player is responsible for the contact, or a roll of the hand enough for a carry or not, when specifically does the dribble end as a player catches the ball with one hand).

There is no question about what happened on this play. The official didn't apply a judgment and decide it was not enough to call. The official simply didn't see it or didn't recognize what he saw.

Stepping OOB is not a judgement call either. The player either stepped out or the player didn't step out. When the player steps out, there is no judgement to be applied to determine if you should blow the whistle or not.

Not seeing something isn't a judgement. It is just not seeing something.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #89 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 02:16pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
That is not what "Judgement Call" means.

A "Judgement Call" is when what happens is not in question. It is when the official has to decide if what happened (and was clearly observed) is an infraction or not is (is the contact enough for a foul or not, which player is responsible for the contact, or a roll of the hand enough for a carry or not, when specifically does the dribble end as a player catches the ball with one hand).
Can you direct me to the exact place where I can find this so-called definition? Because the actual definition of "judgment" does not suggest what you are saying.

All judgment means in a dictionary definitions, "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions."

So let us not add to what we say the word means when there is no such change in the definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
There is no question about what happened on this play. The official didn't apply a judgment and decide it was not enough to call. The official simply didn't see it or didn't recognize what he saw.
Did you talk to him directly? I know I didn't talk to the official personally. Actually, I have not heard him speak at all on the matter. I have no idea what he was thinking or not thinking at the time of the play. I just know there was a violation not called. He might have thought the player did something else that did not make it a violation. He would have been wrong, but I have no idea if he missed the action all together thinking of something else or he

Stepping OOB is not a judgement call either. The player either stepped out or the player didn't step out. When the player steps out, there is no judgment to be applied to determine if you should blow the whistle or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Not seeing something isn't a judgement. It is just not seeing something.
His judgment could have been wrong with either not being aware of one part of that play. If there was no judgment then there would have been a call.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #90 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 08, 2019, 04:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,499
In the end 2 top officials did something we all do game in and game out. They missed a call. This call in and of itself did not dictate outcome. The losing team hits a shot they missed earlier in the game, or one less turnover, things are different. The difference is time to recover is non-existant, however they still fouled on the 3-point attempt.

Would I have made this call or not? I don't know. If I'm on this game and make this call, I guarantee there will be other wrong calls that would get attention. It's a zero sum game to argue "a call dictated the outcome" unless the call was wrong at the buzzer that determined an outcome. That is the only scenario where a call dictates a game.

I wish I had the opportunity to screw this call up. That means I did something right to officiate a final 4 game. Ill take it.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Block/Charge Final Second Final 4 sdoebler Basketball 28 Mon Apr 08, 2019 08:21am
Vid Request: Virginia v Virginia Tech - T? bucky Basketball 9 Tue Feb 19, 2019 04:44pm
Semi final/final system of Beijing Hirvi Softball 14 Fri Jun 20, 2008 08:28am
Virginia Tech/Virginia refTN Basketball 13 Fri Mar 10, 2006 08:37am
Final Final Final List of Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules BillyMac Basketball 1 Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:23am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1