LSU v. Florida Video Request - Continuous Motion

[zm1283]

3:45 of 2nd half in SEC tournament today. Florida's shooter makes a three point shot as his teammate is being fouled off ball. Crew gets together and counts the basket as they judged continuous motion had started. Of course Karl Ravich and Jimmy Dykes were convinced it was incorrect since the ball had not been released yet.

[Raymond]

That foul occurred well before shooting motion. A1 had just caught the ball when the illegal contact first started. He then started to bring the ball up, brought it back down, then restarted his shooting motion.

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[chapmaja]

I have only seen one replay of this shot. My impression, from that one view, was that the foul occurred well before the shooting motion started. The issue for LSU was that after this happened the coach got T'ed up, which when everything was said and done meant the game went from a 3 point LSU lead to a 3 point Florida lead.

I am a bit shocked this isn't considered a reviewable situation under NCAA replay rules.


EDIT: I just found another view of this. It can be argued that the contact occurred before the shooter ever even had the ball, and the foul certainly was before the try started.

This play is really not that close and the crew should have been able to figure it out. It doesn't help that the whistle only comes when the screener is already on his ass. Bad miss.

[Raymond]

Yeah, the problem was caused by waiting so long to blow the whistle.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

This play is really not that close and the crew should have been able to figure it out. It doesn't help that the whistle only comes when the screener is already on his ass. Bad miss.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Yeah, the problem was caused by waiting so long to blow the whistle.

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That is one of the problems that comes from having a really patient whistle on everything....late enough that everyone has already seen what happened. You can't use the timing of the whistle to determine the point it occurred relative to anything (such as a shot).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

3:45 of 2nd half in SEC tournament today. Florida's shooter makes a three point shot as his teammate is being fouled off ball. Crew gets together and counts the basket as they judged continuous motion had started. Of course Karl Ravich and Jimmy Dykes were convinced it was incorrect since the ball had not been released yet.

Peace

[BillyMac]

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?

(For both NFHS and NCAA.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?



(For both NFHS and NCAA.)

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

If this it happens near the end of the game or at the end of a shot clock, monitor review would use the time of illegal contact to set the game clock, but you can't change the the determination of continuous motion even with replay showing the illegal contact started before the act of shooting.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

That may be how it often works out in practice when two different officials are combining information, but the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That may be how it often works out in practice when two different officials are combining information, but the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

I agree. This was a situation where a quirk in the rules and a late whistle by the official changed the entire flow of the game.

To me the foul is clearly before the shooter begins the act of shooting. In fact to me the foul actually occurs simultaneous with the catch of the ball by the shooter behind his left shoulder. The shooter then goes into what would have been the start of the shooting motion before he has to stop and restart that motion due to his team mate flying across in front of him.

The other thing I'm not sure about was the two whistles. Did the same official blow the whistle twice, or were there two late whistles on the play, possible one from the lead after seeing the contact before the center makes the call late.

To me this is something that should be reviewable to make sure the call is correct without consideration to the time left in the game.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

If this it happens near the end of the game or at the end of a shot clock, monitor review would use the time of illegal contact to set the game clock, but you can't change the the determination of continuous motion even with replay showing the illegal contact started before the act of shooting.

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This is not consistent within the NFHS rules (unless they clarified from the book I'm looking at which isn't the current book), due to inconsistency within the NFHS rules.


There are two parts to the rule about a dead ball that are important.

Dead ball: The ball becomes dead

Article 5 : An officials whistle is blown (see exception a)

Article 7: A foul, other than a player or team control foul occurs. (exceptions a,b,c)

Exceptions: A: when a try or tap for goal is in FLIGHT.

Exceptions: B: (article 7) occurs by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting), the trying motion must be continuous .......


To me these are inconsistent with each other. Also, the key word is the trying motion by be continuous. In this case, the trying motion wasn't a continuous motion as he stopped the motion to let his team mate fly by after he was fouled.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

... the NFHS rules ...

NFHS BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

I'm not disagreeing. If this play had been in a HS game, not a college game, there is no way that 3 should have counted. We would have either a ball out of bounds, a 1-1 or 2 shots (depending on foul situation) with the score still 63-60.

If the NCAA rule is the same, and I suspect it is. This is not a made 3 point basket because the foul occurred before the shooter was in his shooting motion. Bad miss by the officials.