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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 12:29pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
What surprises me in this discussion is that you seem to believe that the defensive team won't know this was a violation. In my experience watching games, players and coaches are well aware that offensive team bouncing the ball on the midcourt line results in a BC violation. Maybe the players and coaches here are just smarter than where you are . . .
Don't think too deeply about what you think I believe. My thoughts on why this is a no call, for me personally, is not as simple as you described.

There are some plays where a call, even if correct, can have a much more negative effect on the game then a no-call. I don't think there are many but there are some. I think this is one of those plays as it is EXACTLY described. Keep in mind, this is the first time I ever gave this play any thought and if I encounter this situation and it plays out different from what I have in my mind now, I will reverse my position.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 12:38pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
There are some plays where a call, even if correct, can have a much more negative effect on the game then a no-call.
For which team exactly and why are you making this decision? As an impartial arbiter of the game the "effect" of one's calls shouldn't have any impact on the job at hand.

"game management" has it's place, however enforcing the rules > "game management".
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 12:47pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Partially correct. If the player that touches the ball first when it has "frontcourt" status was on the same team (offense) that was last to touch it when it gained "backcourt" status then the ball still is considered part of the "backcourt" (silly logic) and is a violation.

Where, when, how many times the ball bounces has little/no bearing on the status and violation when the ball is touched in relation to "frontcourt".
No...it is not still considered part of the backcourt. The 10 second count that started when it touched the backcourt would now stop because the ball now has frontcourt status.

The violation is that team A is not allowed to be the next to touch a ball that had been in the backcourt previously, even if it is now in the frontcourt, if they were the last to touch it before it returned to the backcourt.

Where the ball is when it is touched doesn't have anything to do with the rule.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 12:51pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No...it is not still considered part of the backcourt. The 10 second count that started when it touched the backcourt would now stop because the ball now has frontcourt status.

The violation is that team A is not allowed to be the next to touch a ball that had been in the backcourt previously, even if it is now in the frontcourt, if they were the last to touch it before it returned to the backcourt.

Where the ball is when it is touched doesn't have anything to do with the rule.
So are you saying this violation is something other than a "backcourt" or "over and back" violation?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:03pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
For which team exactly and why are you making this decision? As an impartial arbiter of the game the "effect" of one's calls shouldn't have any impact on the job at hand.

"game management" has it's place, however enforcing the rules > "game management".
I have had an official tell me to call 5 fouls as fast as I can on problem players to get them out of the game so the kid does not ruin the game. I disagree with that. I have had an official tell me to rule a block/charge based on the score spread (team is down 30, they will get the call). I disagree with that. I have had officials tell me to hold my whistle on a foul 80 feet from the basket. I kind of agree with this depending on the outcome of the contact.
These officials are "state tournament" level officials. I guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I will continue to work hard on every play and put myself in the best position possible to make the correct decision. I will continue to give it 100% when I am on the court no matter the level. If I can do these things, no one will care if I pass on the call described in the original post.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:07pm
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The only one I agree with is a bang/bang block/charge in a blowout. The team ahead will be the "offender" every time.

Being a "state" official doesn't mean they are the most qualified unfortunately....When in Rome
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:16pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
So are you saying this violation is something other than a "backcourt" or "over and back" violation?
No. It is a backcourt violation...but the violation is not for touching the ball in the backcourt. It is for being the first to touch a ball that returned to the backcourt regardless of whether it remained in the backcourt.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Feb 04, 2019 at 01:23pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:23pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I have had an official tell me to call 5 fouls as fast as I can on problem players to get them out of the game so the kid does not ruin the game. I disagree with that. I have had an official tell me to rule a block/charge based on the score spread (team is down 30, they will get the call). I disagree with that. I have had officials tell me to hold my whistle on a foul 80 feet from the basket. I kind of agree with this depending on the outcome of the contact.
These officials are "state tournament" level officials. I guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I will continue to work hard on every play and put myself in the best position possible to make the correct decision. I will continue to give it 100% when I am on the court no matter the level. If I can do these things, no one will care if I pass on the call described in the original post.
You might get away with it, but that does not make it right. Are you also going to pass on a similar save that bounces on the sideline instead? Why or why not?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:30pm
rsl rsl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
There are some plays where a call, even if correct, can have a much more negative effect on the game then a no-call.
If you are savvy enough to make this no-call, you should be savvy enough to make a "no-post" on this thread.

Posting that "I am not going to enforce a rule just because" will always invoke a negative response on this board.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:40pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No. It is a backcourt violation...but the violation is not for touching the ball in the backcourt. It is for being the first to touch a ball that returned to the backcourt regardless of whether it remained in the backcourt.
Correct, because the ball, for this specific purpose, is not considered part of the frontcourt. Otherwise they just make it very confusing. Similar to granting Team Control during inbounds for cases of fouls only, even though technically TC doesn't yet exist.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:41pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You might get away with it, but that does not make it right. Are you also going to pass on a similar save that bounces on the sideline instead? Why or why not?
I would not pass on an OOB call where the ball hits the line. There is nothing else to take into consideration when the ball strikes the line. A backcourt violation comes with caveats that don't exists with the OOB violation and you know it.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:44pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by rsl View Post
If you are savvy enough to make this no-call, you should be savvy enough to make a "no-post" on this thread.

Posting that "I am not going to enforce a rule just because" will always invoke a negative response on this board.
I see your point and it is well taken.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 01:48pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The ball in the training video has backcourt status; which the narrator makes a point of.

The ball originally discussed has frontcourt status.
Thanks. THat's helpful.

It reminds me of some posts here a long time ago to the effect of: For a BC violation to happen, it's not necessary that A touch the ball in the FC or that A touch the ball in the BC. Only that the ball reach the FC, and the BC an A is the last to touch before and first to touch after.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 03:48pm
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Another reason to call this (and not ignore the rule) is that if you don't call it, you are putting your partner(s) in a tough position. If I'm the C on a play like this, there is a chance that I see the ball bounce in the BC. If I was 100% that the ball hit the BC, I'm coming to get this violation from the C if the T misses it or doesn't know the rule.

This isn't a judgement call/trust your partner call -- it's an obvious (although unusual) violation and I can't defend passing just because it's the Trail's line to call.

For those who are arguing not to call this, what would you do if your partner came and got it?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2019, 04:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I would not pass on an OOB call where the ball hits the line. There is nothing else to take into consideration when the ball strikes the line. A backcourt violation comes with caveats that don't exists with the OOB violation and you know it.
Still doesn't matter, but OK. Do you ignore it when A1 (in the FC) throws a bounce pass across the court to A2 (also in the FC) such that it bounces on the division line?

In the end, you really have no rational argument for not calling this. If you want to write the rules, get on the rules committee. Otherwise, being a renegade only makes it hard for everyone.
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