Vid Request - Auburn vs Ole miss - Reaching out of your area

[bucky]

I was reading the "Reaching out of your area" thread earlier today and then flipping channels later and found the Auburn vs Ole Miss game. I just happen to stumble upon a "Reaching out of your area" play. With about 16:44 left in the game, the T official, with no action in his PCA, calls a shooting foul on a low post defender on the opposite side of the lane. L and C saw the play and were both closer but T called the foul immediately. T had no delay in his whistle. No one seemed to mind that T made the call.

[Nevadaref]

What do you expect someone to do? Should the L run out there and take his whistle away? If a partner makes a call, there is nothing to do about it other than administer and move on. At that level video will be reviewed and the calling official will have to answer to the supervisor.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What do you expect someone to do? Should the L run out there and take his whistle away? If a partner makes a call, there is nothing to do about it other than administer and move on. At that level video will be reviewed and the calling official will have to answer to the supervisor.

Gee Nevada, where were you in the other thread discussing the same thing?

[JRutledge]

I saw the play in question. The Trail called it late and called contact that was up top. It was in the lane so he would be looking there and I believe he felt that the contact that affected the shot was missed by the other officials. Nothing about that call was something he could not call or like the thread that talked about making the call missed completely in another official's area.

Peace

[griblets]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It was in the lane so he would be looking there and I believe he felt that the contact that affected the shot was missed by the other officials.Peace

T often has the best angle to see between the players on low block shots on C side of court. C and L can be straight lined. I encourage my partners to call that from T in that situation.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by griblets

T often has the best angle to see between the players on low block shots on C side of court. C and L can be straight lined. I encourage my partners to call that from T in that situation.

Especially if T is 'closed down' / at the 28 ft mark or lower. The curl away play (going away from C) from the opposite block is a great 'up top' point of contact call for T. Body contact or anything from the eyes down would likely be a call from R.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I saw the play in question. The Trail called it late and called contact that was up top. It was in the lane so he would be looking there and I believe he felt that the contact that affected the shot was missed by the other officials. Nothing about that call was something he could not call or like the thread that talked about making the call missed completely in another official's area.

Peace

Not necessarily trying to argue but....

1) I did not feel it was called late but rather very quickly.

2) "It was in the lane so he would be looking there..." Why? Lane is not T's PCA, especially far lane.

Nothing wrong with call per say, guess I am just not seeing/understanding difference b/w this play and other thread. Neither of the two closest/responsible officials made the call and the farthest one away, looking outside their PCA, did.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Not necessarily trying to argue but....

Isn't this what you do in a discussion board? We discuss the issue.

Originally Posted by bucky

1) I did not feel it was called late but rather very quickly.

If you hear the cadence of the whistle, he called it when it was clear no one else had the same thing. And if you look at his angle, he has the best angle. The defender is not vertical and the C and L are likely straight lined on the arm movement of the defender.

Originally Posted by bucky

2) "It was in the lane so he would be looking there..." Why? Lane is not T's PCA, especially far lane.

Where does it say only the L calls everything in the lane? I have never attended any camp or training that makes that suggestion. The lane theoretically can be all officials having eyes and an angle on the play. Isn't BI and GT plays happening in the lane? How does an official from the C or T call those violations if they never look at the lane? You have to know if there is a shot just to make those violation rulings in most cases.

Originally Posted by bucky

Nothing wrong with call per say, guess I am just not seeing/understanding difference b/w this play and other thread. Neither of the two closest/responsible officials made the call and the farthest one away, looking outside their PCA, did.

If you do not see the difference of a shot taken outside the lane, below FT line extended, opposite side of the court from the C and a shot in the lane where multiple players are there rebounding and defending the basket, I am not sure what to tell you.

Peace

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by bucky

Not necessarily trying to argue but....

1) I did not feel it was called late but rather very quickly.

2) "It was in the lane so he would be looking there..." Why? Lane is not T's PCA, especially far lane.

Nothing wrong with call per say, guess I am just not seeing/understanding difference b/w this play and other thread. Neither of the two closest/responsible officials made the call and the farthest one away, looking outside their PCA, did.

I was having a hard time understanding the difference myself. Why is this call ok, but most were against a partner going out of their PCA on the other thread?

Is it because the official is a veteran, is respected, and no one questions him? That seems to be the unwritten rule from what I have read on the other thread. I don't know anything about this official.

I 100% agree that a low post spin away from the C is a really good look for the T. But to get that, the T has to go out of their PCA to get it.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Isn't this what you do in a discussion board? We discuss the issue.



If you hear the cadence of the whistle, he called it when it was clear no one else had the same thing. And if you look at his angle, he has the best angle. The defender is not vertical and the C and L are likely straight lined on the arm movement of the defender.



Where does it say only the L calls everything in the lane? I have never attended any camp or training that makes that suggestion. The lane theoretically can be all officials having eyes and an angle on the play. Isn't BI and GT plays happening in the lane? How does an official from the C or T call those violations if they never look at the lane? You have to know if there is a shot just to make those violation rulings in most cases.



If you do not see the difference of a shot taken outside the lane, below FT line extended, opposite side of the court from the C and a shot in the lane where multiple players are there rebounding and defending the basket, I am not sure what to tell you.

Peace

I think we all know/see the difference, but the underlying tone from quite a few guys was to not reach out of your PCA. Some guys implied that you should never go outside of your PCA, especially in college.

If somebody sees a clear foul in each situation, why not let that person go outside of their PCA and get either foul? I understand the look and location on the court plays into it, but reaching out of your PCA is reaching out of your PCA.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I was having a hard time understanding the difference myself. Why is this call ok, but most were against a partner going out of their PCA on the other thread?

Is it because the official is a veteran, is respected, and no one questions him? That seems to be the unwritten rule from what I have read on the other thread. I don't know anything about this official.

I 100% agree that a low post spin away from the C is a really good look for the T. But to get that, the T has to go out of their PCA to get it.

A big difference is the openness to the play. In the other case, it was clear the T had a open look at the play. Perhaps the T just didn't see the contact that the C saw, but the T had a good position to normally make a good judgement.

When things get crowded and sight-lines get cut off, things change. That is the entire point of the principles of coverage on curl plays. The lane is usually more congested than other areas and it is easy for the "primary" official to not have a good look on some types of plays. If you know those types of plays, you'll know when it is a good idea to jump in and when it is a good idea to not jump in.

Look at your partner(s). If they have a clear look at the play and could have seen the contact and made a judgement, leave it alone if it is anything short of a non-basketball play. If you see that their view was likely blocked and it is an obvious foul, get it but do so late.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A big difference is the openness to the play. In the other case, it was clear the T had a open look at the play. Perhaps the T just didn't see the contact that the C saw, but the T had a good position to normally make a good judgement.

If you see that their view was likely blocked and it is an obvious foul, get it but do so late.

JRut had some good points and I am not trying to dispel the legitimacy of the call. It actually appeared to be a great call and was a borderline crew saver as L and C had nothing on an obvious foul.

It certainly does not indicate anywhere that L calls everything in the lane but it is indicated (officials manual) that "When the ball is not in an official's primary coverage area, that official takes all players in his area."

I reviewed all of ballgame99's posts and could not find anything that indicated T had a "clear" look. In fact, I think it was implied that ballgame99 would not have made the call had he thought T indeed had a clear look.

No doubt all have made good input and there are definitely times when reaching our of one's PCA is acceptable. A habit? No, but sometimes acceptable.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I was having a hard time understanding the difference myself. Why is this call ok, but most were against a partner going out of their PCA on the other thread?

Is it because the official is a veteran, is respected, and no one questions him? That seems to be the unwritten rule from what I have read on the other thread. I don't know anything about this official.

I 100% agree that a low post spin away from the C is a really good look for the T. But to get that, the T has to go out of their PCA to get it.

You seem to be hung up on the part of who the official is who has the primary coverage area. I would not call that foul that was in the OP as described if the official was new to the league or level. He is assigned to the game for a reason and why would I be looking there anyway? Do I have nothing else going on around me? Heck I am not going to put myself out there to call a foul that my partner clearly saw and I might not be right about. That is awful far to go. This is not in the lane where we all have eyes are on a play. I have never been told the lane only belongs to the lead BTW. Certain plays we give the Lead first crack for sure, but we do not ignore things in the lane when it is very possible certain officials on the floor have not look at a play or potential contact or even pivot feet.

I have made a kind of deal with myself about plays going away from me personally. So if the ball is going away, it better be so obvious that everyone sees it for me to even think about calling something. I posted a video of a play I was involved in where the play was going away from me. I only made that call because it was still in my primary for the most part, but I rarely make those calls anymore. Both my partners were D1 officials on that game and I do not need to do their job for them.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

I reviewed all of ballgame99's posts and could not find anything that indicated T had a "clear" look. In fact, I think it was implied that ballgame99 would not have made the call had he thought T indeed had a clear look.

Well he might not have had a clean look, but there was nothing in his post that said he was screened or did not see the action. Whether he had a clean look is also subjective. But he clearly said that his partner did not have a foul and had a leg kick. I did not read where the partner felt he missed the play or did not see the play.

Originally Posted by bucky

No doubt all have made good input and there are definitely times when reaching our of one's PCA is acceptable. A habit? No, but sometimes acceptable.

No one said that you cannot ever call a foul outside of your PCA, but you better be more of a dual area and should be rare.

Peace