Jump Ball - Start the game (Video)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

...the ball is touched.


NCAA-Men's Rule 9-8-Art. 1. It is a violation when:
b. Either jumper leaves the center circle before the ball has been touched by a jumper, catches the jump ball, or touches it more than twice.

I’m aware of that rule. Neither player here left the center circle. Red foot crossed over to NC side and NC player crossed into red side. Both still in circle. First portion of rule says each player to stay in their half of center circle. NFHS note says stay in your own half “during jump ball.” Jump ball ends when touches non jumper, floor etc...I certainly wouldn’t have a call here but I was looking for anything might be diffferent just based on way Jeff phrased it/question...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I’m aware of that rule. Neither player here left the center circle. Red foot crossed over to NC side and NC player crossed into red side. Both still in circle. First portion of rule says each player to stay in their half of center circle. NFHS note says stay in your own half “during jump ball.” Jump ball ends when touches non jumper, floor etc...I certainly wouldn’t have a call here but I was looking for anything might be diffferent just based on way Jeff phrased it/question...

I don't see anything in the high school rule that Billy quoted that says when that restriction ends.

There is definitely nothing in the college rules that states when that restriction ends. Of course the college rule explicitly states what is a violation whereas the high school rules refer you back to 6-3.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see anything in the high school rule that Billy quoted that says when that restriction ends.

I also thought so until BigCat showed me the light. It's hidden in the note.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Poorly written by NFHS (so what else is new), ending the restriction should be in the rule itself rather than a subsequent note.

I'm a basketball official, not a detective (with apologies to Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy).

[ilyazhito]

Nothing happened here. The ball was rolling around on the floor with no control by anyone, so there is no possibility of a backcourt violation here.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I also thought so until BigCat showed me the light. It's hidden in the note.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Poorly written by NFHS (so what else is new), ending the restriction should be in the rule itself rather than a subsequent note.

I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends. How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Originally Posted by Raymond

How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?

Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.



Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

The one thing I love about these videos is that people see things that I never even imagine would be thought about. If there is anything I hate about what people see, is they see things that no one would even think to care about.

I have never even thought that a player landing on the other side of the division line as a violation. It ever would have occurred to me that this was even thought of as something to call. I am more worried about if the ball was touched at the proper point and the clock starting properly. Yes, there are times when a player might move or run through the circle that is not a jumper, but still very rare. But never in my career, I can think of that I ever watched where a player landed between the jumpers.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT.

BigCat did come up with a valid (although poorly written and well hidden) citation.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Ever since the introduction of the alternating possession arrow, it has been my contention that many otherwise extremely competent officials either don't fully understand and memorize all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, and/or it's difficult to watch for all the many violations and many restrictions that can occur during the jump ball, especially in a two person game.

And we only get to observe various jump ball situations once (usually) a game.

As the umpire in a two person game, I'm watching for common violations, jumpers tapping the ball on the way up, jumpers catching the ball, or jumpers touching the ball more than twice, before the jump ball ends (touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, or the floor). I'll also watch for the ball hitting the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers.

Unless one of the nonjumpers does something really weird, I'm probably not going to observe any non-really-weird violations from them. To avoid some nonjumper violations, as the umpire (or the referee) prejump, I will warn nonjumpers standing within three feet of the jump ball circle not to stand three feet directly behind anybody.

To my point of otherwise extremely competent officials not fully understanding and memorizing all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, several times a year I hear otherwise extremely competent (state tournament late round) varsity officials saying, prejump, "Hold your spots" to all eight nonjumpers, or, "You can't stand behind him”, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, both whom are ten feet off the jump ball circle.

The jump ball is archaic, some jump ball rules are poorly memorized/understood and/or poorly enforced, and we should start games with some other method.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line?

He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

NFHS note says stay in your own half “during jump ball.” Jump ball ends when touches non jumper, floor etc. ...

NOTE: During a jump ball a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.

ART. 8 The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the
touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a
basket or backboard.

Nice citation BigCat.