Video Request: St. Johns at Seton Hall - Inadvertent Whistle

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I use NFHS and cite 4-12-2d and 4-12-3, and the absence of contravening evidence in 4-12 articles 4-6. There are also no 4.12 case plays that back up your interpretation.

This is a POI case involving a team that was in control, in my opinion. But I am willing to be proven wrong if you can come up with a clearer reference rule or case.


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You can also look at the POE in the back of the 2017/18 rule book. It is same there as in 14/15 book.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You can also look at the POE in the back of the 2017/18 rule book. It is same there as in 14/15 book.

Got all that and understand it. We don’t count 3s, 10s, make court location determinations, yada yada yada, until player/team control inbounds. Other rules already exist to support all of these facets. The POE just interprets them in one place for those who still—some ten years after the 4-17 rule change—overthink this.

BUT!! The POE—which is just that and not an actual rule—mentions nothing about IW/POI situations during TIs before control is established inbounds. So with that, a plain reading of 4-12/13, as already argued, indicates that a team is in control during a TI after the pass is released and before player control is established inbounds. No gymnastics (to borrow the metaphor used last year) are needed to explain this. It’s right there in black and white in the rule book. There is no 4-12-3d that says “...the ball is released on a TI pass.” That’s all the NFHS would need to do to favor your interpretation, and yet in ten years they haven’t, and I believe that’s precisely because they don’t favor your interpretation.

I realize we didn’t resolve this last year and we’re not likely to this time around, either.


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[Camron Rust]

The NFHS has made it abundantly clear that team control only exists on a throw-in for the purpose of fouls and, for all other cases, there is no team control on a throw in.

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that. But, the explanation of those rules when they came out and again in several situations after that specifically say that there is no team control for any other purpose during a throwin.

The most recent time they made that clear was in last year's powerpoint presentation.

You can see it on slide 30 here: https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default..._Point.CD_.pdf

In it, they say:

▪ The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Subsequent slides further clarify the issue.

They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that....They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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I found a n NCAA clarification memo from Art Hyland Jan 2, 2018 covering this exact play in video. Team A is still in control even after throwin is deflected because a throwin is “a pass among teammates.”4-9-2..Give the ball back to Team A. They got it right in the video.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I found a n NCAA clarification memo from Art Hyland Jan 2, 2018 covering this exact play in video. Team A is still in control even after throwin is deflected because a throwin is “a pass among teammates.”4-9-2..Give the ball back to Team A. They got it right in the video.

Art said what I was kind of thinking. He just articulated it better. So in NCAAM, we have an IW with a team in control in this situation.

Why, for the love of chicken soup, would we rule this any differently in HFHS? The relevant rule language is ostensibly identical.


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[bballrules]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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Not sure I agree that NCAA does not address this. I can only speak for WBB (I am pretty sure the men's rules are written the same), but I can say this:

Rule 4-8.2: A team shall be in control when: (a) a player of the team is in control; (b) while a live ball is being passed between teammates; (c) when a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in; or (d) during an interrupted dribble.

What is more important than when team control exists is when it ends. Rule 4-8.3 states that team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control of the ball, or the ball becomes dead.

In the play from the game, once the ball was placed at SHU's disposal for the throw-in, they have team control until the conditions of Rule 4-8.3 exist. Since none of things had occurred prior to the official's whistle, SHU will be awarded the ball for a throw-in when play resumes (the men use the nearest throw-in spot, in this case, the 28-foot line; NCAAW would put the ball into play at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located when the official sounded the whistle).

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS has made it abundantly clear that team control only exists on a throw-in for the purpose of fouls and, for all other cases, there is no team control on a throw in.

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that. But, the explanation of those rules when they came out and again in several situations after that specifically say that there is no team control for any other purpose during a throwin.

The most recent time they made that clear was in last year's powerpoint presentation.

You can see it on slide 30 here: https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default..._Point.CD_.pdf

In it, they say:



Subsequent slides further clarify the issue.

They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

I agree. I looked back in the 2006-07 Rules Fundamentals #2 where it says "Neither a team nor a player is ever in control during a dead ball, or during a jump ball or throw in." So, if this IW following the deflection situation occurred back then it would result in an AP throw in. As Cameron said, the NFHS made it clear the TC aspect on a throw in only pertains to fouls (by the throw in team.) Here in Ohio I remember the OHSAA was emphatic this was exactly how this was to be interpreted. Any other situation that might occur was to be ruled the same as it was before the new TC rule was adopted. Fine if the NCAA wants to interpret differently; but the NFHS has never changed its interpretation to my knowledge.

[bucky]

So, in essence, the release of the throwin is irrelevant, right? Had the IW occurred while the in-bounder was holding the ball, still go to AP if NFHS. That seems very unfair.

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=bucky;1027971]So, in essence, the release of the throwin is irrelevant, right? Had the IW occurred while the in-bounder was holding the ball, still go to AP if NFHS. That seems very unfair.[/QUOT

If the throw in hasn’t been released then the throwin has not ended and the POI under NFHS rules is a throwin for that team. If the throwin is released and not yet touched, the throwin has not ended and POI is again a throwin to the throwin team. If the throwin is released, deflected and loose when IW happens then you go to AP. No team in control inbounds.
NCAA says even when throwin deflected and loose, throwin team still in control. POI goes back to throwin team.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If the throw in hasn’t been released then the throwin has not ended and the POI under NFHS rules is a throwin for that team. If the throwin is released and not yet touched, the throwin has not ended and POI is again a throwin to the throwin team. If the throwin is released, deflected and loose when IW happens then you go to AP. No team in control inbounds.
NCAA says even when throwin deflected and loose, throwin team still in control. POI goes back to throwin team.

100% correct

[BigCat]

You can also look at 4.19.8f. Throwin is released and before it is legally touched a double foul occurs. Ruling. POI. Since Team As throwin “had not ended” the POI is a throwin by team A.
They didn’t say Team A has team control so they get ball back.

Once the throwin ends..inbounds control rules apply. They should put the POE language in the rule instead of making it a POE every two or three years...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Once the throwin ends..inbounds control rules apply. They should put the POE language in the rule instead of making it a POE every two or three years...

Bingo.

[HokiePaul]

I always had assumed that it was the officials who started the clock in college -- I usually see at least 1 officials with his/her hand on the timing pack behind their back to turn it on. I had assumed this was the official start of the clock -- and I also assumed that the whistle automatically stopped it.

Is this correct? If so, then why would the official have been worried about a late start to the clock if he was the one starting it? And if not, what is the official turning on behind their back with the timing pack?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I always had assumed that it was the officials who started the clock in college -- I usually see at least 1 officials with his/her hand on the timing pack behind their back to turn it on. I had assumed this was the official start of the clock -- and I also assumed that the whistle automatically stopped it.

Is this correct? If so, then why would the official have been worried about a late start to the clock if he was the one starting it? And if not, what is the official turning on behind their back with the timing pack?

I work a few game a year with the PTS, and yes, the officials should have started the clock with their packs.