Shooter landing on defender laying on floor

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by LRZ

"But what do you tell the coach when they ask 'what did the offender do wrong?'"

"No LGP, Coach."

The disagreement here centers on different understandings of what is meant by B1 taking a spot on the court, if it means LGP or if it includes lying on the court. Arem Red's statement--"You can’t play legal defense laying on the ground"--makes more sense to me.

I've offered my take, YMMV. OK.

What if the player was instead of lying on the floor, a defensive player standing with his back to the offensive player? Free license to run the defender over? No LGP there.

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your opinion, in this case is wrong. As Billy's citation above confirms, the NFHS has made it clear that even a player lying down is entitled to his/her spot. A1 doesn't get to jump on B1 just because B1 is lying on the floor and get the benefit of a foul call.

+1

NCAA-M different set a rules on this play

[ilyazhito]

If I saw a player lying down on the floor and not getting up, I would stop play, for the sake of player safety. In this way, the entire OP situation would be avoided. Provided that the coach is not beckoned onto the floor, and that the player lying on the floor is not substituted for, he may continue playing.

If A1 contacts B1, it would be a foul against A1 for pushing, holding, or whatever other form of illegal contact that he committed against B1. A player cannot be run over just because he is lying on the floor. If I have stopped play and a player runs into the player on the floor, he will receive an Intentional Foul (Flagrant 1/Unsportsmanlike Foul) at the very least, if not a Flagrant (2)/ Disqualifying Foul.

[Pantherdreams]

I'm not a huge "if there's a body on the floor you have to have something guy" anyway.

To back the OP up if there is chaos causing multiple bodies to end up sprawled in front of active shooters/drivers, I had better make sure I'm cleaning up the play that is leading to this if it is in fact rough play and not just a 1 off random event.

If the player is on the floor, not moving and gets tripped over or landed on I've got nothing. However if the player on the floor is moving to get up or putting an arm up even to protect themselves and clips a legs or undercuts a shooter inadvertantly I think you have to call the foul. If they are lying there doing nothing they can't be responsible for the contact, if they re moving to get up or try to get the ball from their back and that movement leads to the contact I have that on them.

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NCAA-M have a casebook citation validing AremRed's "IMO"? I think so.
It's just that NFHS doesn't. Though it did.

A.R. 86. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his back to B1,
who is prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his attempt to drive to the basket,
trips and falls over B1.
RULING: Foul on B1, who is not in a legal guarding position.
(Rule 4-17.4.a)

NCAA-M says that this is a foul, not sure that we have definitive ruling from NFHS.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

NCAA-M says that this is a foul, not sure that we have definitive ruling from NFHS.

We once had one, and then Penn and Teller made it disappear.

It's probably still in the hat.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Foul. You can’t play legal defense laying on the ground. The “entitled to your spot on the floor” clause does not apply to a player on the ground IMO.

I tend to agree with AremRed.

Everybody is entitled to a spot on the floor, laying on the floor is not legal guarding position.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your opinion, in this case is wrong. As Billy's citation above confirms, the NFHS has made it clear that even a player lying down is entitled to his/her spot. A1 doesn't get to jump on B1 just because B1 is lying on the floor and get the benefit of a foul call.

In this particular case, I believe you are correct. I don't think I could call somebody for a foul if they were just laying there and the shooter "floats" ahead and lands on them.

There are times when a player on the ground, whether they were there first or not, can be called for a foul. Am I wrong on this?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

There are times when a player on the ground, whether they were there first or not, can be called for a foul.

Sure, by sticking out an arm, or a leg, any illegal contact that's an effort to trip or block an opponent.

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

[Pantherdreams]

So when Laettner steps on Timberlake we feel like that should have been a foul on Timberlake?

If AI had tripped on Ty Lue we want a foul on Lue?


This isn't a LGP issue. I don't think anyone is proposing that you call on offensive foul on the shooter/dribbler here but you can't (IMO) call a foul on the prone player for being run into. If they were on their knees and got run into, if their back was turned and they got run into, etc we wouldn't penalize them with a foul for being in that spot minding their buisness. If offense floats into a defenders shoulder who isn't involved in play we don't call the block on the player who was just there in his own space . . .

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

In this particular case, I believe you are correct. I don't think I could call somebody for a foul if they were just laying there and the shooter "floats" ahead and lands on them.

There are times when a player on the ground, whether they were there first or not, can be called for a foul. Am I wrong on this?

You are not wrong. Being on the floor doesn't make a player immune to fouling. They have to do something other than just being there to get a foul.

[thedewed]

boy I don't know. It's a pretty well accepted principle of the game that if you are on defense, and a ball possessor contacts you, you better be in LGP or you risk a foul call. You've got to be aware of where the ball is and square up. If you've got your back to the ball and get run into, it's on you, is the way I've always understood it. And that works.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by thedewed

boy I don't know. It's a pretty well accepted principle of the game that if you are on defense, and a ball possessor contacts you, you better be in LGP or you risk a foul call. You've got to be aware of where the ball is and square up. If you've got your back to the ball and get run into, it's on you, is the way I've always understood it. And that works.

That (pretty much all of your post) can't be further from the truth. If you're calling it that way, you're giving players fouls that don't deserve them in a lot of cases and are guilty of perpetuating incorrect information.

[thedewed]

Okay, how about a defensive player standing with his arms out and a dribbler runs into the outstretched arm, no foul? The defensive player was standing there like a statue. If an offensive player with the ball comes in contact with a defensive player that is not in legal guarding position, the responsibility for the contact is on the defensive player. Can someone stand like a statue with his back to a ball handler in front of the basket and take a charge? No. Why not if you are correct?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by thedewed

Can someone stand like a statue with his back to a ball handler in front of the basket and take a charge?

Yes.