The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 17, 2018, 07:04pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.


I'm not in it for the kids. But I'm not going to ask for a 2-person game for $30 more, either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 17, 2018, 10:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.
Although "being in it for the kids" is a noble sentiment, I realize that I do not actually agree with that idea. College officials and professional officials are not "in it for the kids" by definition because the competitors in their games are adults. In addition, professional and (some) college officials have officiating as their main source of income, so any idealistic expressions such as the above are mere rationalizations.

Was Ed Hochuli really "in it for the kids" when he started his officiating career as a law student working Pop Warner games to make a few extra bucks? Did Joey Crawford or Zach Zarba start their basketball careers "for the kids"?

Some officials do want to give back to the athletes whose games that they officiate, but many officials are in the game for other reasons. Thus, "for the kids" is just a rationalization used to guilt-trip high school officials into accepting certain sacrifices that they would not otherwise want to make. College basketball went 3-person a long time ago, at least on the men's side, and shows no signs of there being a remote desire to change back to 2-person. Maybe this was because there was no false idealism in college basketball officiating.

Personally, although I do give high school and recreational games that I am assigned to maximum effort and attention possible, I am not in it "for the kids", because I look to pursue higher-level opportunities in officiating. This is because I have enjoyed my officiating experience so far, and wish to continue it for as long as I am able to run up and down a field/court.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: A little east of there.
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Some officials do want to give back to the athletes whose games that they officiate, but many officials are in the game for other reasons.
I'm "in it" for both of these reasons - give back to the kids/community and other (i.e. extra income, staying active, being around the game). TBH, though, I probably wouldn't do it for any reason if I wasn't getting compensated.

Last edited by #olderthanilook; Tue Dec 18, 2018 at 10:02am.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
I'm "in it" for both of these reasons - give back to the kids/community and other (i.e. extra income, staying active, being around the game). TBH, though, I probably wouldn't do it for any reason if I wasn't getting compensated.
I would agree with you on that. Unless I'm doing Special Olympics or another event for charity, I would not do games for free. I might also ask a reduced fee for doing 3-person in a normally 2-person game (if there is a limited budget to pay for officials otherwise), but I would otherwise not work games for no fee. I would also choose to not work 2-person varsity games whenever possible, because 2 person is not an adequate system for covering varsity games.
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 09:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,966
Follow up

https://www.gazettextra.com/sports/h...gn=gazettextra
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 10:37am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
I should have stopped reading when he said, "I never worked three-person...."

You lost all credibility talking about going to a system that you never worked. That means you never understood the acute differences.

Boy bye!!!!

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 10:45am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I should have stopped reading when he said, "I never worked three-person...."



You lost all credibility talking about going to a system that you never worked. That means you never understood the acute differences.



Boy bye!!!!



Peace


I'm in a place where I can't read this. Can someone post the text for me?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,966
Basketball Weekly: Last week's column on basketball officiating draws plenty of feedback

"My column last week on the shortage of officials and the recommendation of switching back to a two-person crew was met with much criticism.

I was called everything from an “arm-chair official” to an “officiating novice” and charged with not knowing anything about PCA or POEs. I was also called sexist for using the term “three-man crew” and not a “three-person crew.”

It was also suggested that I help solve the situation by picking up a whistle and joining the officiating ranks.

Harsh words, but it all tells me how passionate many folks are about the subject.

Let me first address the arm-chair and officiating novice complaints. While attending the University of Wisconsin and upon my graduation from college (1987), I officiated basketball in this area and the Dallas/Forth Worth metroplex for more than 10 years.

Many of those I worked with are still blowing the whistle today. I never worked a three-person crew, but I did do well over 100 games as part of a two-person crew.

Does that make me an expert? No. But it does give me some background on the subject and how games are officiated.

Unfortunately, covering games for The Gazette makes it impossible to officiate the game, as well.

As far as Primary Coverage Area (PCA) and Points of Emphasis (POE), I’ve seen enough games officiated by three-person crews to know which officials know what they’re doing and which ones were thrown into the mix simply to fill a contract that calls for three officials.

I think too many readers missed my point. I’m well aware that there are many great officials still available in our area. I see it on a nightly basis. They’re professional, well-versed on the game and are there to do a job. They don’t draw attention to themselves and simply do their job to the best of their ability. That means hustling at all times, knowing the rule book and putting the players’ safety first.

My concern is in regards to the vastly rising number of officials who, to put it bluntly, have no business working varsity games.

They’re timid in their calls, not in physical shape to run up and down the court on a consistent basis and don’t seem to have a grasp on PCA, POE and the rules of the game.

And the reason they’re put into that position is because there aren’t enough officials available to work varsity games where the conference has set the three-person crew as the standard. In the past, officials got their feet wet reffing junior varsity-level games, preparing themselves for varsity contests as part of a two-person crew. The overall shortage of officials, combined with the need for three officials for each contest, can sometimes force administrators to fill crews with the best available option from an ever-shallowing pool of options.

That’s why I suggested the possibility of reverting back to a two-person crew during the regular season.

I know the three-person crew is here to stay and that many officials would quit if conferences went back to a two-person crew. Forty-nine of fifty states are now using the three-person crew at the varsity level.

My biggest concern is that as more and more of the older officials retire, who will be there to take their place?

For many reasons, including verbal abuse from the stands, pay and full-time jobs, young adults are not signing up to fill the void. A shortage of high school officials in all sports is gripping the state, a topic we covered in The Gazette extensively in the past year.

All I was trying to do was make a suggestion on how to alleviate a problem in basketball.

As for the three-man crew compared to the three-person crew, I’m well aware that the area has many qualified female officials. It’s great to see and great for the game. I certainly meant no disrespect by calling it a three-man crew. Three-woman, three-man, three-person, doesn’t matter to me as long as they’re qualified and fit to be doing games at the varsity level."
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 10:49am
Often wrong never n doubt
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I'm in a place where I can't read this. Can someone post the text for me?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

My column last week on the shortage of officials and the recommendation of switching back to a two-person crew was met with much criticism.

I was called everything from an “arm-chair official” to an “officiating novice” and charged with not knowing anything about PCA or POEs. I was also called sexist for using the term “three-man crew” and not a “three-person crew.”

It was also suggested that I help solve the situation by picking up a whistle and joining the officiating ranks.

Harsh words, but it all tells me how passionate many folks are about the subject.

Let me first address the arm-chair and officiating novice complaints. While attending the University of Wisconsin and upon my graduation from college (1987), I officiated basketball in this area and the Dallas/Forth Worth metroplex for more than 10 years.

Many of those I worked with are still blowing the whistle today. I never worked a three-person crew, but I did do well over 100 games as part of a two-person crew.

Does that make me an expert? No. But it does give me some background on the subject and how games are officiated.

Unfortunately, covering games for The Gazette makes it impossible to officiate the game, as well.

As far as Primary Coverage Area (PCA) and Points of Emphasis (POE), I’ve seen enough games officiated by three-person crews to know which officials know what they’re doing and which ones were thrown into the mix simply to fill a contract that calls for three officials.

I think too many readers missed my point. I’m well aware that there are many great officials still available in our area. I see it on a nightly basis. They’re professional, well-versed on the game and are there to do a job. They don’t draw attention to themselves and simply do their job to the best of their ability. That means hustling at all times, knowing the rule book and putting the players’ safety first.

My concern is in regards to the vastly rising number of officials who, to put it bluntly, have no business working varsity games.

They’re timid in their calls, not in physical shape to run up and down the court on a consistent basis and don’t seem to have a grasp on PCA, POE and the rules of the game.

And the reason they’re put into that position is because there aren’t enough officials available to work varsity games where the conference has set the three-person crew as the standard. In the past, officials got their feet wet reffing junior varsity-level games, preparing themselves for varsity contests as part of a two-person crew. The overall shortage of officials, combined with the need for three officials for each contest, can sometimes force administrators to fill crews with the best available option from an ever-shallowing pool of options.

That’s why I suggested the possibility of reverting back to a two-person crew during the regular season.

I know the three-person crew is here to stay and that many officials would quit if conferences went back to a two-person crew. Forty-nine of fifty states are now using the three-person crew at the varsity level.

My biggest concern is that as more and more of the older officials retire, who will be there to take their place?

For many reasons, including verbal abuse from the stands, pay and full-time jobs, young adults are not signing up to fill the void. A shortage of high school officials in all sports is gripping the state, a topic we covered in The Gazette extensively in the past year.

All I was trying to do was make a suggestion on how to alleviate a problem in basketball.

As for the three-man crew compared to the three-person crew, I’m well aware that the area has many qualified female officials. It’s great to see and great for the game. I certainly meant no disrespect by calling it a three-man crew. Three-woman, three-man, three-person, doesn’t matter to me as long as they’re qualified and fit to be doing games at the varsity level.

Here’s a look at three area games on tap this week:

Whitewater (5-3, 5-2) at Walworth Big Foot (6-2, 5-2), girls, Rock Valley, 7:15 p.m., today, Big Foot High School—The winner remains at least tied for first place in the Rock Valley.

Whitewater bounced back from back-to-back conference losses by blasting Brodhead last Friday. The Whippets have three players averaging 12 points or more a game, led by Abby Grosinske and Kacie Carollo at 13.6 each.

Big Foot has won four of its last five conference games to move into a four-way tie for first. Junior forward Reagan Courier leads the conference in scoring at 22.2 points per game.

Best guess: Big Foot 61, Whitewater 50

Janesville Parker (1-7) at Milton (0-7), boys, nonconference, 7:15 p.m., Saturday, Milton High School—The Vikings ended their long losing streak Tuesday against Madison West, while the Red Hawks continue to look for an end to their skid.

Milton has lost 34 straight games since beating Oregon on Feb. 10, 2017. Freshman Jack Campion leads the Red Hawks in scoring at 14.3 points per game. The team is allowing nearly 70 points a game.

Parker has been inconsistent in its first season under coach Matt Bredesen. The Vikings have been competitive, at times, but all of their losses have come by double digits.

Senior Tremar Curry leads the Vikings in scoring at 11.2 per game. Senior Connor Stricklin made his season debut Tuesday and scored a game-high 16 points.

Best guess: Parker 68, Milton 60

Lake Geneva Badger (7-3) at Janesville Craig (2-4), girls, nonconference, 7:15 p.m., Friday, Craig High School—This is a matchup of two teams that seem to be headed in opposite directions. The Badgers have won three straight, while the Cougars have lost four straight after starting 2-0.

Jada Moss leads Badger in scoring at 15.7 points a game. The Badgers are averaging 51.9 points.

Craig is in a tailspin due to too many prolonged scoring droughts.

In a 55-38 loss to Madison East last Friday, Craig led by 10 at half but scored only nine points in the second half.

Senior Emily Pierson leads the team in scoring at 13 points per game, with sophomore Claudia Fieiras averaging 11.8.

Best guess: Badger 54, Craig 49

John Barry is a sports writer for The Gazette.
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 11:05am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Sadly, too many people think sportswriters and basketball coaches are qualified to judge officiating capability and performance.

In this particular case, however, it couldn't be farther from the truth. Sad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 12:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
I'm "in it" for both of these reasons - give back to the kids/community and other (i.e. extra income, staying active, being around the game). TBH, though, I probably wouldn't do it for any reason if I wasn't getting compensated.
You said exactly how I feel.

Would I go out on the road and be away from my kids 40-50 nights per season if I didn't get paid? No, but I do enjoy officiating. Therefore, I am willing to accept lower pay from areas that pay less. I don't worry about my check being $5 less if somebody messes up. The amount of money I get means nothing to me. I know the pay is going to be between $XX and $XXX, depending on where I am going that night.

I do like to "do it for the kids" to some small degree. Mostly, I like the little bit of extra money that I make to put in my kids' college funds. I love the exercise and I love being around other officials and coaches. Some of those people I only see during basketball season. I loved playing ball growing up, but my competitive desire to play no longer exists. That has been replaced by my love of officiating and the desire to stay around the game. These are the reasons I go out and do it.
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 12:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I should have stopped reading when he said, "I never worked three-person...."

You lost all credibility talking about going to a system that you never worked. That means you never understood the acute differences.

Boy bye!!!!

Peace
I don't think any experienced official can honestly say that working 3 man is not better for everybody vs 2 man.

If you haven't worked it, you really shouldn't have an opinion.

Just my opinion
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 12:34pm
Often wrong never n doubt
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 737
There isn't a thing wrong with 2 man. It is perfectly fine. That is until you work 3 man. The next time you work 2 man you realize it is terrible. You know you are missing half the stuff you normally pick up. I don't know how anyone could claim 2 man is better.
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,966
I have no issues with officials that do it "for the kids." To each his own.

My issue with that phrase is that it's often used as lip service by people who couldn't care less about the kids. Or coaches saying that they're "defending my kids" to justify poor behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 21, 2018, 01:35pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
I Really Miss My Partner ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
There isn't a thing wrong with 2 man. It is perfectly fine. That is until you work 3 man. The next time you work 2 man you realize it is terrible. You know you are missing half the stuff you normally pick up.
Try working one person, as I did yesterday for the first time in over thirty-years. I knew going in that I was going to miss a lot of calls, but after I tossed the jump ball and officiated a few minutes I said to myself, "Man, this is really tough, I really miss my partner". You guys that do all three person must say the same thing to yourselves when your may be rarely forced to do two person.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Officiating in Philadelphia area as a volunteer italian_referee Basketball 3 Thu May 11, 2017 12:46pm
Officiating in the Birmingham Area ace Basketball 15 Thu Apr 10, 2008 06:40pm
Officiating Camps in Philadelphia Area jasoa Basketball 0 Tue Jun 21, 2005 04:27pm
AAU Basketball Officiating in the Houston Area crimsontopper Basketball 9 Sat Jun 04, 2005 07:56pm
Three peron crew --------calling out your area Gmoore Basketball 18 Fri Jan 28, 2005 09:38am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:57pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1