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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 11:34am
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The people that struggled with 3-person were the veterans. The younger officials that actually cared about what they were doing often were the officials that understood 3-person better. You do not need perfect officials to work 3-person if you teach the basics of 3-person. And if they have veteran partners, we can deal with the other aspects of the game that make the game go smoothly. Not all officials get good when they worked 10 years of basketball. Some are good a couple years in. Yes, you might need more officials, but that does not mean the officials that worked 2-person were that great. I remember when I would watch officials work with only 2 at varsity games. There were guys who could not run, would not get into position and certainly not be in able to keep up even in a 3-person assignment in today's game. So I am not sure what point he was making. Using his old ass experience as an official that worked 2-person in the 80s and 90s does not have much to do with today. Again, a totally different game is played and I hardly see official do anything right in 2 person games I watch now with the way the game is played.

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The people that struggled with 3-person were the veterans. The younger officials that actually cared about what they were doing often were the officials that understood 3-person better. You do not need perfect officials to work 3-person if you teach the basics of 3-person. And if they have veteran partners, we can deal with the other aspects of the game that make the game go smoothly. Not all officials get good when they worked 10 years of basketball. Some are good a couple years in. Yes, you might need more officials, but that does not mean the officials that worked 2-person were that great. I remember when I would watch officials work with only 2 at varsity games. There were guys who could not run, would not get into position and certainly not be in able to keep up even in a 3-person assignment in today's game. So I am not sure what point he was making. Using his old ass experience as an official that worked 2-person in the 80s and 90s does not have much to do with today. Again, a totally different game is played and I hardly see official do anything right in 2 person games I watch now with the way the game is played.



Peace

Exactly. The old guys were mostly the ones bitching about 3-person and were terrible at it.

So few of the people I watch in JV games work 2-person right. When I filled in for an injured official a few years ago and went ballside as the lead, it completely confused my partner. He'd *never* seen anyone do that!

Come to think of it, few V officials here did that in 2- person games.


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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 11:39am
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Can't Teach An Old Dog New Tricks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The people that struggled with 3-person were the veterans.
Agree. For the few three person games that we do, veterans seem to struggle more than the younger guys, of course there are exceptions with both age groups. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 11:50am
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A GOOD 2-person veteran official will not look horribly out of place when first starting out in 3-man. They will at least know to call obvious fouls and violations in whatever area they are looking at (primary or straying to secondary) and they will look for cues from their partners to see where they should rotating to. The rest is either window dressing or can be compensated for by the other 2 crew members. An official who looks completely out of place in 3-man, most likely looks that way in 2-man also.

I still believe brand new beginners need to be taught 2-man exclusively if that's all that's going to be working in their first season. Teach them 3-man after their first season. The ones who want to be good will seek out the training necessary in the off-season.

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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 05:23pm
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I agree with teaching 3-man after the first year. This would allow the newer officials to see the connections between 2 and 3-person officiating (the 2-person Trail position is more similar to the Center position of a 3-person crew than to its 3-person namesake), get familiar with the 3-person system (with possible reinforcement in non-scholastic leagues and/or subvarsity games), and be considered as varsity alternate officials. 3rd years might then start seeing a limited varsity schedule (with more assignments depending on ability and availability), and thus there will be a pipeline of qualified 3-person officials to supplement and eventually replace the veterans.

ODog, what is the situation like in MA when it comes to 3-person? I know that MA uses 3-person in the playoffs, that some varsity games are 2-person, and that the MIAA handbook addresses 3-person game fees by saying they should be no more than 85% of the 2-person fee. Are 3-person games between bigger schools, private school teams, or are they randomly spread across the board? Is it different in different boards (Board 27 doing more 3-person games than Board 54)?
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 09:01pm
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There is very little 3-person in Mass. A couple of leagues use 3 in February as a prep for the tourney. I just heard from a partner (but have not confirmed) that one league is using 3-person crews for all varsity games this season for both boys and girls. Private schools use only 2 as well.

IAABO boards do not assign, so it doesn’t matter to which board you belong — only which leagues you work.

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
what is the situation like in MA when it comes to 3-person?
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 22, 2018, 10:28pm
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Rich's area - Is it time to drop the 3-man officiating crew?

Since we’re on the subject of states that use 3-p, I noted the opinion writer’s rebuttal that stated “49 of 50 states are now using 3-person crews at the varsity level.” Where does he get that data? From this forum alone I know that CT, RI, and evidently most of MA are still 2-p. Maybe he’s referring to states that use 3-p at least in the playoffs?

Just goes to further question his credibility and expertise on the matter, which we’ve already shown is dubious to begin with.


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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 23, 2018, 12:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I agree with teaching 3-man after the first year. This would allow the newer officials to see the connections between 2 and 3-person officiating (the 2-person Trail position is more similar to the Center position of a 3-person crew than to its 3-person namesake), get familiar with the 3-person system (with possible reinforcement in non-scholastic leagues and/or subvarsity games), and be considered as varsity alternate officials. 3rd years might then start seeing a limited varsity schedule (with more assignments depending on ability and availability), and thus there will be a pipeline of qualified 3-person officials to supplement and eventually replace the veterans.
It is up to you to decide what you want to know as an official. It is not up to anyone to require you to learn anything. There are plenty of resources to learn any mechanics system you wish. I did not wait until anything when I started in the 90s to learn 3-person. I went to camps, read books and watched officials work. I picked it up very early.

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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:18pm
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I was referring to what Raymond said earlier. Raymond: "I still believe brand new beginners need to be taught 2-man exclusively if that's all that's going to be working in their first season. Teach them 3-man after their first season." If associations were to teach 3-person on a consistent basis starting with each official's second year, it would make the transition to the varsity level and/or playoffs easier, simply because the official in question would have been familiar with 3-person mechanics from either the classroom sessions, on-court practice, or both. This might also be the way to get 2-person areas to transition to 3-person, by making the membership as a whole knowledgeable enough in 3-person mechanics to mitigate the growing pains that Camron alluded to.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 24, 2018, 06:24pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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I got that, but the point is that it is ultimately up to the official to seek whatever training they can get. Heck officials half the time do not even seek training in my experience. So I am happy anytime they seek anything, but caution as well that they need to learn the stuff they are doing and not totally concentrated on something they may never get an opportunity to try out. But again I live in an area where we have many options to get training and it is up to each person to decide when to take advantage. I teach a new official's class in the fall and there are many camps and association meetings to attend and that is up to the official to decide. But I do agree with Raymond to an extent.

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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2018, 12:32am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
ODog, what is the situation like in MA when it comes to 3-person? I know that MA uses 3-person in the playoffs, that some varsity games are 2-person, and that the MIAA handbook addresses 3-person game fees by saying they should be no more than 85% of the 2-person fee. Are 3-person games between bigger schools, private school teams, or are they randomly spread across the board? Is it different in different boards (Board 27 doing more 3-person games than Board 54)?
Contrary to what BayStateRef said, there is plenty of 3-person in Mass., at least in my area. More than 60 percent of my games are 3-whistle. Maybe more than 70 percent. Some schools use exclusively three all season, while some only use it for 3-4 home games just as a primer in the event their teams make the tourney. But all schools play some 3-whistle games. Doesn't matter if it's large inner city boys programs or terrible small-school girls programs.

It's very prevalent in our area, and moreso every year. And all officials get the full fee. The 85-percent-fee thing went out the window by vote of our county ADs a few years ago. Two- or three-whistle, doesn't matter: You get $84.

But it does seem to depend on where you live in the state, as neighboring counties, some of whose teams play in the same leagues as our teams, don't pay for three officials as often and don't pay full fee when they do.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 26, 2018, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I'd have to assume that UIL and TAPPS authorized 3-person officiating in Texas in 1998 or some time soon thereafter. On any basketball officials' association website in Texas, there is information about 2 and 3 person, including information on 3-person game fees, which means that 3-person is pretty widely used in TX.

Still, just because you were an official before 3-person was introduced does not make you an expert on 3-person. I would not call BillyMac an expert on 3-person, because CT rarely uses 3-person (playoffs and a few rivalry games a year), but I would call JRutledge, Raymond, or Rich experts, because they have consistently worked 3-person on multiple levels.
I've worked games in D/FW since the mid 2000's. 3-person was already prevalent when I started, so I imagine you are correct. As the years have gone by, more and more schools adopted the 3rd official, to the point where now only the smallest schools (1A & 2A) still use 2 officials (and even they go 3 person during playoffs)
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:18am
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We've got a couple of leagues that are 3 man out here. In addition some of our stronger tournament finals are done that way. We go to the third person in postseason at quarterfinals or later in most divisions although there is an "Open Division" which I believe is entirely 3 man.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:21am
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Rich's area - Is it time to drop the 3-man officiating crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper View Post
We've got a couple of leagues that are 3 man out here. In addition some of our stronger tournament finals are done that way. We go to the third person in postseason at quarterfinals or later in most divisions although there is an "Open Division" which I believe is entirely 3 man.


I can’t believe that CA, the most populous state in the union, remains mostly mired in 2-person....with a shot clock, no less.

That is back asswards.


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Last edited by crosscountry55; Wed Dec 26, 2018 at 11:30am.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Contrary to what BayStateRef said, there is plenty of 3-person in Mass., at least in my area. More than 60 percent of my games are 3-whistle. Maybe more than 70 percent. Some schools use exclusively three all season, while some only use it for 3-4 home games just as a primer in the event their teams make the tourney. But all schools play some 3-whistle games. Doesn't matter if it's large inner city boys programs or terrible small-school girls programs.

It's very prevalent in our area, and moreso every year. And all officials get the full fee. The 85-percent-fee thing went out the window by vote of our county ADs a few years ago. Two- or three-whistle, doesn't matter: You get $84.

But it does seem to depend on where you live in the state, as neighboring counties, some of whose teams play in the same leagues as our teams, don't pay for three officials as often and don't pay full fee when they do.
That's interesting. Where in MA do you call games? I'm curious, because Bay State Ref's profile says that he's in the Boston area. Bay State said that there is no relationship between what IAABO board you are in and the leagues you work. Is that true?

What would it take to get 3-person implemented universally at the varsity level in MA? Timewise, I say it would happen in the next decade.
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