Rich's area - Is it time to drop the 3-man officiating crew?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Off topic. Over the years we have occasionally discussed not working games for certain schools (payment issues, safety issues, security issues, fan control, unsporting issues, etc.) but have been told by attorneys that this would break our contract with the CIAC, and put us in serious legal jeopardy.

It is clear your area does not have a true Independent Contractor relationship. If you did they cannot make any official work any game they do not wish to work.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is clear your area does not have a true Independent Contractor relationship. If you did they cannot make any official work any game they do not wish to work.

I was speaking collectively, "We're (my board) not assigning officials to your school (school system) if your don't start paying us in a more timely manner", but I still see your point.

While I fully agree with you regarding my independent contractor status, we can still block out specific sites, schools, teams, genders, and levels, on Arbiter (with some limitations), and also blanket gender "block" with an email to our assigner. We can also block out any dates and times that we do not want to be available (although we're later fined if we don't block and we're assigned and don't accept).

While I'm fairly certain that many Forum members are actually true independent contractors, I'm also pretty sure that some just toss the word around willy-nilly without fully understanding all the labor and tax implications. I once spent considerable time on IRS websites and labor websites trying to figure out exactly what it means to be an independent contractor, and unless one is a tax attorney, or a labor attorney, the qualifications are often difficult to understand, especially since the laws often vary state by state.

[JRutledge]

I will just say it this way. If we in Illinois had an association do all our assigning for all games and levels, that could violate state law being an independent contractor and those associations would have to start likely paying some form of workman's comp. So no organization really has that kind of "official" relationship to assignor or only hire those from one organization. And certainly, these organizations are in no way paying the officials directly through any bank account. It might be a little more complicated than that, but I can tell you that every association I am a member of changed their constitutions to reflect that they do not assign any games. The assignors that belong to our associations have no obligation to the association, but to assign who for their respective conferences that hire them. And I know all assignors hire people outside of their main or primary association.

Peace

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Rich

No, no, 100 times no.

Officials shouldn't pay for adding a third official. That's just a terrible, umsustainable idea.

When my conference that I hire went to 3-person a few years ago, we paid the officials the exact same amount the 2 officials got the year before.


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Absolutely agree with this. There MUST be premium attached to getting a 3 man varsity officiating crew at the varsity level. IMO, that value/cost should be MORE than a Fr/So/JV crew. That way, the expectations and level of commitment/accountability continue to be in place for all involved, and, as a result, the overall level of officiating and decorum is noticeably higher across the board.

In my area, Fr/So/JV games pay 2 man crew members between 45-55 per game. 3 man varsity crews (I don't know any schools in the metro and outlying areas that use 2 man), in the same area/conference, are paid between 60-80 per game.

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by Rich

No, no, 100 times no.

Officials shouldn't pay for adding a third official. That's just a terrible, umsustainable idea.

When my conference that I hire went to 3-person a few years ago, we paid the officials the exact same amount the 2 officials got the year before.


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While I agree with you I don't know how you got this to fly with the schools. Our schools were and still are resistant to 3-man officiating simply due to the cost. We have some of the lowest fees in the country at $52 for a varsity 3-man game. $60 for varsity 2-man. There have been talks of strikes or flu days but nothing has come to fruition. I'm not sure what the solution is but there is a lot of frustration around fees in our state and association.

This maybe getting OT would be happy to start a new thread.

[LRZ]

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

While I agree with you I don't know how you got this to fly with the schools. Our schools were and still are resistant to 3-man officiating simply due to the cost. We have some of the lowest fees in the country at $52 for a varsity 3-man game. $60 for varsity 2-man. There have been talks of strikes or flu days but nothing has come to fruition. I'm not sure what the solution is but there is a lot of frustration around fees in our state and association.



This maybe getting OT would be happy to start a new thread.

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.


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[Rich]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

And, frankly, I wish there was more courage to call districts out on this nonsense.

I worked a varsity football game in a brand new stadium that cost in excess of $8 million this past season and our 5-man crew got a whopping $55 each.

[Raymond]

If officials in my area had insisted on the same pay per official for both 2-man and 3-man, we would never have moved to 3-man because the money would not have been there

2-man varsity crews were getting $75/official ($150/crew). No way would the schools have agreed to $225/crew. But we were able to convince schools to bump up to $180-195/crew to get 3-man. I'm happy that we did.

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[ilyazhito]

Of course, varsity fees will be higher than subvarsity fees. This is not up for debate. The big discussion point is should 2P and 3P fees be the same within each level (varsity 2P vs 3P, subvarsity 2P vs 3P).

Realistically, I would say no, because schools might not be willing to add an official if the 2P and 3P cost per official was the same. This is why MIAA, FHSAA, and other states that have both 2P and 3P crews for varsity contests (FL does 3P anyway, even in 2P areas, because the state association requires 5 varsity home games in each gender to use a 3P crew during the season) have a difference between per-official fees for a 2P and 3P crew at the same level. Ideally, every state would use 3P at the varsity level (if not at the subvarsity levels), so this should not be a conversation, but we have to fight from the position that we are in in the world that we are in.

As to the OP, I would say HELL NO. If you seriously proposed that to any varsity official, they would start foaming at the mouth :-P and explaining why 3P is good.

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.


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Rich, I am normally in total agreement with you on most things, but will have to agree to disagree here. I love refereeing basketball. However, if I get a contract more than 60+ miles away from home for $66....then I'm going to have some thinking to do. Is it worth time away from my young family to leave at 5pm and return at 10pm for just north of $10/hr?

I understand you are in a tough spot trying to keep officials and schools happy. I also appreciate you working hard to get your fees up in your part of the state.

In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.

I hope you don't take offense to this Rich, I am one of your biggest fans on here and on Facebook as well.

pfan

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

...

In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.
...

pfan

I know locally, the money made at the gate has nothing to do with the funds that are used to pay officials. You can fill a 10K arena full of paying fans and it would have no impact on what is available in the school budgets to pay officials.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

Some of these awesome new facilities and upgrades/re-models have officials' rooms with showers.....but not hot water.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.

Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

Rich, I am normally in total agreement with you on most things, but will have to agree to disagree here. I love refereeing basketball. However, if I get a contract more than 60+ miles away from home for $66....then I'm going to have some thinking to do. Is it worth time away from my young family to leave at 5pm and return at 10pm for just north of $10/hr?



I understand you are in a tough spot trying to keep officials and schools happy. I also appreciate you working hard to get your fees up in your part of the state.



In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.



I hope you don't take offense to this Rich, I am one of your biggest fans on here and on Facebook as well.



pfan

I pay what others pay in the Madison area and thereabouts. I'm at least $1 more in most cases.

I can't compete with the $80 to $95 they pay "up north." I wish I could.

Right now I'm able to fill hoops schedules. When I can't......but we won't go 2-person. I had officials suggest we stay 2 and pay more and I won't do that. It's bad for the game.


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