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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 04:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Excellent video. Thanks sdoebler.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball.
(4-44-5b)
Except that video does not, IMO, reflect what is being talked about in the ruling.

I don't see that player putting the ball on the floor and getting up. The ball is already on the floor, the player touches it to stop it from rolling, then gets up. At no time was that player holding the ball...no player control established, which is what would be necessary to have a travel.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yep, the proper term is something like "automatic bonus"
I like to think of bonus meaning opportunity.

In the case of a single bonus, a player has an opportunity (note singular) to make 2 shots.

In the case of a double bonus, a player has opportunities (note plural) to make 2 shots.

In the latter, the player has double the opportunities or double bonus.

Maybe we should eliminate use of single/double and just use bonus/bonuses
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 05:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I like to think of bonus meaning opportunity.

In the case of a single bonus, a player has an opportunity (note singular) to make 2 shots.

In the case of a double bonus, a player has opportunities (note plural) to make 2 shots.

In the latter, the player has double the opportunities or double bonus.

Maybe we should eliminate use of single/double and just use bonus/bonuses
That isn't what it means, however.

The penalty is one shot plus a bonus shot if they make the first.

The latter really isn't an automatic bonus or a double bonus, it is just 2 shots. There is no bonus to it. The whole thing is the natural penalty and they get it no matter what. However, automatic is far closer than double if we're going to use the term bonus.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 05:47pm
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Still A Great Video ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Except that video does not reflect what is being talked about in the ruling. I don't see that player putting the ball on the floor and getting up. The ball is already on the floor, the player touches it to stop it from rolling, then gets up. At no time was that player holding the ball...no player control established, which is what would be necessary to have a travel.
Agree. Can the touch to prevent the roll be considered a "controlled" touch?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 07:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Excellent video. Thanks sdoebler.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball.
(4-44-5b)
Nice video but I do not think it fits the case as far as your red-letter words. To me, the video shows control is gained with the knee touching the floor and then the player rising, which is the traveling part.

Back to your myth list and "holding" a ball for traveling. To "hold" usually means grasping, as in using one hand. As far as a basketball, holding generally means with two hands or one hand and at least another body part. (for example one hand on the ball depressing it against a player's waist = player is holding the ball). Do you consider someone palming (and not in the dribbling sense but rather controlling the ball with one hand moving it in any direction) the ball to be "holding" it? I do not consider palming to be holding in the basketball sense which is another reason why I prefer the word "controlling" when discussing traveling. Palming is like a very specific method of holding. Not sure how I feel about describing a supinated hand with the ball on it. Thinking holding but if hand on the bottom is holding, why shouldn't on the top (palming) be holding? And if we have a specific term for describing the palm on top (palming) then why no specific word for the palm being on the bottom? (suppose could say supinating but no one does, everyone says holding) More for me with which to wrestle. Not debating anything, just throwing out my two cents. No one in the world will question your description of traveling in your myth list.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 07:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. Can the touch to prevent the roll be considered a "controlled" touch?
Think you are answering your own question. Would not the words "touch to prevent" = control?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 07:25pm
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Ain't Math Great ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... control is gained with the knee touching the floor and then the player rising, which is the traveling part.
It's just for a fraction of a second (I had to pause the video), but you're right. Holding (control) plus knee on floor equals a travel.

A player holding the ball: May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2018, 10:37pm
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Is knee = traveling, because there is no pivot foot?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 12:51am
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Because I Said So ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is knee = traveling, because there is no pivot foot?
It's because the rule says it is: A player holding the ball: May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 02:18am
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Then why is kneeling legal under NCAA rules, with the proviso that the pivot foot not be moved?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 07:22am
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Apples And Oranges ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Then why is kneeling legal under NCAA rules, with the proviso that the pivot foot not be moved?
My best guess would be because high school games use NFHS rules and college games use NCAA rules, but that's just a guess on my part.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 08:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Then why is kneeling legal under NCAA rules, with the proviso that the pivot foot not be moved?
Because the rules makers decided it should be different. I'm not quite sure I understand the question.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 09:54am
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What is the logic behind the differences in the NFHS and NCAA rule set when it comes to kneeling? Is it because NCAA believes that one can kneel without moving the pivot foot, but NFHS does not believe that?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
What is the logic behind the differences in the NFHS and NCAA rule set when it comes to kneeling? Is it because NCAA believes that one can kneel without moving the pivot foot, but NFHS does not believe that?
Options:

1) NFHS was ahead of the game on the "national anthem protest" thing so restricted kneeling

2) 99% of the time the pivot foot moves, so just make it easier on the officials

3) It was an inadvertent change (or no change) to one of the books, and now the committee feels the need to justify it

4) True

5) All of the above except 6

6) No one knows and no one should care. This isn't one of those rules where you need to know the "spirit and intent" to enforce correctly.

7) It improves the game's entertainment value in NCAA

8) Many of the NCAA refs also work D-League or WNBA, and that's the D-League and WNBA rule and the officials can't be expected to remember the differences

9) There is no 9

10) You're the first person to notice and by writing the rules committees you can get the rule sync'd next season
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2018, 10:47am
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In Perfect Harmony (Coca-Cola, 1971) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
You're the first person to notice and by writing the rules committees you can get the rule sync'd next season
Let's just get rid of the "alphabet soup" and just have Esperanto Basketball Rules.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Dec 07, 2018 at 11:15am.
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