Vid request: Duke vs Army - shooter loses control and touches again

[bucky]

We have had discussions/debates about a shooter that loses control of the ball and is the first to touch again. At about 1:40 remaining in the Duke/Army game, Duke player (Jones I think) rises to shoot, loses control, he lands, and then jumps and touches the ball again in a tip. Travel? No call? Fumble? Illegal Dribble? I do not recall what the consensus ruling was on the forum.

[Nevadaref]

NCAAM issued a ruling that there is no violation on this play.
NFHS has an old interp from about 2000 that this is a traveling violation.

[JRutledge]

I cannot find that play. Is that the second half?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS has an old interp from about 2000 that this is a traveling violation.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1
SITUATION 1: Al is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, Al fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. Al then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

[JRutledge]

Goes against the rules that they have in place for a description of a fumble. Who is paying attention to this ruling now? Is it still in the book? If not, I am not calling traveling for a fumble.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 SITUATION 1: Al is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, Al fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. Al then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

This above is not the same as this below:

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. No fumble here, just a purposeful, deliberate, intentional drop, that becomes illegal when the player touches the ball again after it hits the floor.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Goes against the rules that they have in place for a description of a fumble.

I agree with JRutledge. Has the NFHS confused the two situations above?

Does the NFHS believe that officials can't tell the difference between a fumble and purposeful, deliberate, intentional drop?

But there's the NFHS 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1 Situation #1 interpretation in black and white, for all to clearly see, until the NFHS changes the rule, or the interpretation, which, as far as I know, it hasn't.

Of course the NFHS never gets confused, and never makes a mistake. Never. Ever.

Who are we to question the Great and Powerful NFHS?

Wait, who did Toto find hiding behind the curtain?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[BillyMac]

For the good of the cause, here are situations similar to what's being discussed in this thread:

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the official considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball.

If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

If, in a similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot, the release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

These are often bang bang plays that need to be ruled correctly. Be ready. They do happen.

Note: I'm not adding the NFHS 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1 Situation #1 to my list until the NFHS comes down from Mount Sinai with it engraved on a stone tablet.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot find that play. Is that the second half?

Peace

Sorry, I believe it was in the first half with about 1:40 remaining.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bucky

We have had discussions/debates about a shooter that loses control of the ball and is the first to touch again. At about 1:40 remaining in the Duke/Army game, Duke player (Jones I think) rises to shoot, loses control, he lands, and then jumps and touches the ball again in a tip. Travel? No call? Fumble? Illegal Dribble? I do not recall what the consensus ruling was on the forum.

Without the video, I am envisioning the ball going upwards perhaps towards the rim/backboard since the player then jumped up to try to tip it in. If so, the player simply botched a try for goal and the subsequent touching is perfectly legal.

[Paintguru]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball.

This came up at our association meeting last night and the instructor posed the question of when this becomes a held ball. He contended that it was when the upward momentum of the shooter has been stopped by the opponents hand on the ball. What is the consensus here? Does the defender have to have his hand on the ball until the shooter returns to the floor? Until his upward momentum stops?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Paintguru

This came up at our association meeting last night and the instructor posed the question of when this becomes a held ball. He contended that it was when the upward momentum of the shooter has been stopped by the opponents hand on the ball. What is the consensus here? Does the defender have to have his hand on the ball until the shooter returns to the floor? Until his upward momentum stops?

I think "until returns to the floor" used to be an NCAAM rule -- don't know if ti still is.

For NFHS and NCAAW, the "upward momentum" seems like a good guideline -- basically, any contact that affects the shooter AND doesn't cause the ball to come immediately loose is, form a practical standpoint, a held ball.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Paintguru

This came up at our association meeting last night and the instructor posed the question of when this becomes a held ball. He contended that it was when the upward momentum of the shooter has been stopped by the opponents hand on the ball. What is the consensus here? Does the defender have to have his hand on the ball until the shooter returns to the floor? Until his upward momentum stops?

Simply look at definition for held ball. It tells you and no, there neither nothing in there about upward momentum nor returning to the floor.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Without the video, I am envisioning the ball going upwards perhaps towards the rim/backboard since the player then jumped up to try to tip it in. If so, the player simply botched a try for goal and the subsequent touching is perfectly legal.

No, this was about a 16 foot jump shot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Simply look at definition for held ball. It tells you and no, there neither nothing in there about upward momentum nor returning to the floor.

NFHS 4-25: A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot
be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an
airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

[Paintguru]

Originally Posted by bucky

Simply look at definition for held ball. It tells you and no, there neither nothing in there about upward momentum nor returning to the floor.

No there isn't, but one needs to establish some criteria for what is enough to prevent a player from releasing the ball on the try vs. a touch of the ball that the shooter still has the ability to release.