Pre-tip off technical foul and non-starter shoots the free throw

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick.

In my opinion, the substituted starter (let's call him A-5) has to sit a tick. A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not reenter (with rare exception) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. The clock didn't start on the free throw for the technical foul.

I disagree. A5 hasn't been substituted for...the game hasn't started yet. The situation that we're discussing is the changing of a designated starter. Team A may change everyone 100 times before the 10-minute mark or even after at the cost of a T. None of those count. Until the game actually starts, the changes are not substitutions.

Once the FTs have been taken, there is a substitution opportunity and and A5 may come into the game.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree. A5 hasn't been substituted for...the game hasn't started yet. The situation that we're discussing is the changing of a designated starter. Team A may change everyone 100 times before the 10-minute mark or even after at the cost of a T. None of those count. Until the game actually starts, the changes are not substitutions.

Once the FTs have been taken, there is a substitution opportunity and and A5 may come into the game.

The game doesn’t start with the free throws when there is a pregame technical foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The game doesn’t start with the free throws when there is a pregame technical foul?

Since the game hasn't started I guess that any points scored from the technical foul free throws don't count. Just like any points scored during the warmup layup lines don't count.

Seriously, the game started when the ball became live, when it's at the disposal of the free thrower for the first free throw for the technical foul.

Designated starter A-5 has to sit a tick.

Also, while I wouldn't grant a request for timeout before the ball became live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand during a "normal" jump ball "start" (game, or overtime), I would grant a request for a timeout in rfp's situation after the ball became live when it's at the disposal of the free thrower for the free throws for the technical foul (depending on who requests it, and when it's requested).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The game doesn’t start with the free throws when there is a pregame technical foul?

Yes, it does. How does that relate to my response?

At the time A5 is changed to A6, the game hasn't started yet. Then, the FTs happen. That starts the game, not the replacement of the designated starter. A5 can be substituted into the game after the FTs since A5 is not reentering...A5 was never in.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... A5 is not reentering...A5 was never in.

Great point, but he was legally replaced as a designated starter.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... the game hasn't started yet ... Until the game actually starts ...

Why hasn't the game "started", and if it hasn't "started", when does it actually "start".

6-2-1: The game and each extra period begins when the ball becomes live as specified in 6-1-2 for a jump ball, throw-in or free throw.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

Once the game starts, the designated starter rule longer applies.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why hasn't the game "started", and if it hasn't "started", when does it actually "start".

6-2-1: The game and each extra period begins when the ball becomes live as specified in 6-1-2 for a jump ball, throw-in or free throw.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

Once the game starts, the designated starter rule longer applies.

Wow, you guys are totaling missing Camron's point. There is no substitution prior to the free throw b/c the game has not started yet. It starts when A6 gets the ball at her/his disposal for the free throw. Was A1 substituted for after the ball was put at A6's disposal?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Wow, you guys are totaling missing Camron's point.

I wasn't seeing it at the beginning, but I'm now starting to see the light, but I'm not yet 100% convinced.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's my wavering story and I'm only sticking to it long enough for somebody to push me over the "sit a tick" cliff.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Once the FTs have been taken, there is a substitution opportunity ...

Isn't there a substitution opportunity after the first free throw has been taken?

After A-6 takes his first free throw attempt, can't A-8 replace A-6 and attempt the second free throw? And then, can't A-9 replace A-8 before the throwin?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Team A may change everyone 100 times before the 10-minute mark or even after at the cost of a T. None of those count. Until the game actually starts, the changes are not substitutions.

Another good point by Camron Rust. But this is a third situation. It's not before the ten minute mark, it's after. It's not at the expense of a technical foul, it's a legal substitution/replacement after the ten minute mark.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Another good point by Camron Rust. But this is a third situation. It's not before the ten minute mark, it's after. It's not at the expense of a technical foul, it's a legal substitution/replacement after the ten minute mark.

It is after the 10 minute mark and the changing of a designated starter. Only the T is excepted. Otherwise, it is just like any other change of a designated starter.

If A6 had been the designated starter up to 12:37 on the pregame clock and it was changed to A5 at that time, would not you allow A6 to enter the game to shoot the FTs for the T?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If A6 had been the designated starter up to 12:37 on the pregame clock and it was changed to A5 at that time, would not you allow A6 to enter the game to shoot the FTs for the T?

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

That's my wavering story and I'm only sticking to it long enough for somebody to push me over the "sit a tick" cliff.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

But what changes about the substitution rule at the 10 minute mark? Nothing. If you say A5 must sit, then A5 must sit if the change was done before the 10 minute mark.

The substitution limitation doesn't begin until the player is actually in the game (the game has started). Why? It only applies to "players". Before the game starts, every one is bench personnel.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

That's my wavering story and I'm only sticking to it long enough for somebody to push me over the "sit a tick" cliff.

Are designated starters considered players or bench personal during warm-ups? Does that status change after the 10 minute mark?

If A6 commits a technical foul after the 10 minutes, after he/she has been designated as the free throw shooter, would the HC receive an indirect Technical?

[Raymond]

Now, despite my logical attempt to address this situation, the Case Book does have something directly on point that refutes my stance:


8.3 SITUATION:

A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws and replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6's disposal. A6 and A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a, 3-3-4)

Same interpretation in NCAA-Men's

A.R. 48. A technical foul is assessed to Team B before the start of the game. The coach from Team A wants to replace designated starter A5 with A6 so A6 can shoot the free throws. Is this permissible?

RULING: Yes. A6 is permitted to replace designated starter A5 to shoot the free throws for the technical foul. When the ball is placed at the disposal of A6 for the free throw, the game has begun and thereafter, all substitution rules apply. Any team member is eligible to become a substitute with the exception of A5, who shall not be permitted to re-enter until the game clock has been properly started after his replacement.

(Rule 3-6.1.j, 3-6.1.k, 5-7.1, 7-4.7 and Rule 10-3 through 4 Penalty)