Pre-tip off technical foul and non-starter shoots the free throw

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

But what changes about the substitution rule at the 10 minute mark? Nothing. If you say A5 must sit, then A5 must sit if the change was done before the 10 minute mark.

The substitution limitation doesn't begin until the player is actually in the game (the game has started). Why? It only applies to "players". Before the game starts, every one is bench personnel.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

That's my wavering story and I'm only sticking to it long enough for somebody to push me over the "sit a tick" cliff.

Are designated starters considered players or bench personal during warm-ups? Does that status change after the 10 minute mark?

If A6 commits a technical foul after the 10 minutes, after he/she has been designated as the free throw shooter, would the HC receive an indirect Technical?

[Raymond]

Now, despite my logical attempt to address this situation, the Case Book does have something directly on point that refutes my stance:


8.3 SITUATION:

A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws and replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6's disposal. A6 and A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a, 3-3-4)

Same interpretation in NCAA-Men's

A.R. 48. A technical foul is assessed to Team B before the start of the game. The coach from Team A wants to replace designated starter A5 with A6 so A6 can shoot the free throws. Is this permissible?

RULING: Yes. A6 is permitted to replace designated starter A5 to shoot the free throws for the technical foul. When the ball is placed at the disposal of A6 for the free throw, the game has begun and thereafter, all substitution rules apply. Any team member is eligible to become a substitute with the exception of A5, who shall not be permitted to re-enter until the game clock has been properly started after his replacement.

(Rule 3-6.1.j, 3-6.1.k, 5-7.1, 7-4.7 and Rule 10-3 through 4 Penalty)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

8.3 SITUATION: A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws and replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6's disposal. A6 and A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started.(3-2-2a, 3-3-4)

Raymond: Thanks for your diligent research.

I admit, I was starting to waver, but a little voice in the back of my mind told me otherwise. I wish the little voice in the back of my head told me to look in the casebook instead of in the rulebook.

Lucky for us, although I was tempted to, I never moved toward the white light.

Nice debate guys.

[Camron Rust]

Good find. As illogical as it is since A5 isn't a player yet and hasn't been removed from a game that hasn't started yet, we have a case.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... illogical as it is since A5 isn't a player yet and hasn't been removed from a game that hasn't started yet ...

Camron Rust: You made several pertinent, relevant, and factual citations to support your side of the issue. You almost had me convinced. The problem was that you seem to have forgotten that the NFHS often plays footloose and fancy-free with terms, and definitions of said terms. Sometimes a player is specifically one for the five team members in the game, and sometimes it's a generic term for everybody on the team. Reenter may specifically mean to have already entered (played in the game) the game and to enter again, and sometimes it means a more generic entering after being replaced/substituted.

Stupid NFHS.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Now, despite my logical attempt to address this situation, the Case Book does have something directly on point that refutes my stance:


8.3 SITUATION:

A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws and replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6's disposal. A6 and A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a, 3-3-4)

Same interpretation in NCAA-Men's

A.R. 48. A technical foul is assessed to Team B before the start of the game. The
coach from Team A wants to replace designated starter A5 with A6 so A6 can
shoot the free throws. Is this permissible?

RULING: Yes. A6 is permitted to replace designated starter A5 to shoot
the free throws for the technical foul. When the ball is placed at the
disposal of A6 for the free throw, the game has begun and thereafter,
all substitution rules apply. Any team member is eligible to become
a substitute with the exception of A5, who shall not be permitted
to re-enter until the game clock has been properly started after his
replacement.

(Rule 3-6.1.j, 3-6.1.k, 5-7.1, 7-4.7 and Rule 10-3 through 4 Penalty)

I know that I am late arriving to the party, but....

The NFHS Situation (which if my memory serves me correctly is now in the NFHS Casebook) and the NCAA Men's A.R. are somewhere between 10 and 12 year old. But I am going back to the early 1980s.

1) The Rule stating when and how the game starts (NFHS Boys'/Girls' and NCAA Men's) has been the same for well over 55 years (the NCAA Women's joined the party in the mid-1980s).

2) The Rule stating that a Substitute can enter the game to attempt TF FTs has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules for well over 55 years.

3) The Rule stating for when and under what circumstances a Starter can be changed have been the same for NFHS and NCAA Men's for well over 55 years.

4) When a TF occurs during the Dead Ball Period before the Jump Ball to start the game two different Rules (see (2) and (3) above) come into play and they are opposed to each other.

In the late December 1981, (I know, how do I remember that month and year? Without going into the details, I just remember.) I had a telephone conversation with Dick Schindler, the then NFHS Basketball Rules Editor, regarding a rules interpretation for a different play which I no longer remember, when our conversation switched to the play we are now discussing.

Dick and I were in agreement, even then, that the Rule allowing the Team to have a Substitute(s) attempt the TF FTs over ruled the Rule regarding when and how Starters could be replaced. Dick stated that, from a logic stand point, the game started the moment the TF occurred.

This now brings us to the question: Can A5 return to the game after the TF FTs have been attempted but before that Game Clock starts? ANSWER: No. The game started at the earliest when the TF occurred and at the latest when the Ball was placed at the Disposal of the FT Shooter for the first FTA.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

I was just coming to post the case play. Better late than never?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know that I am late arriving to the party ...

Every party has a pooper that's why we invited you, party pooper! Party Pooper!

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... which I no longer remember.

Can you even remember what you had for breakfast this morning?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rfp

If there is a pre-game technical foul, such as an administrative T or for dunking during warm-ups, the shooting team has the option for a substitute, A-6, to shoot the foul shots. Does this mean, as in 3-2-2a, that A-6 has been allowed to become a starter and that he/she must start the game? Or can A-6 shoot the fouls shots and return to the bench, allowing the regular starters to start the game?

This situation has been in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated for over a decade. It was also recently added to the NFHS Case Book.
A6 is allowed to sub in for A5, but A5 must now sit a tick before returning. A7 is allowed to come in for A6 prior to the clock starting.

If you search old threads on this forum you will find this ruling and my argument that the NFHS ruling is not correct. About ten years ago I contended that A5 should not have any restriction on his entry as this team member was no longer a starter. Of course, the NFHS has stated differently.