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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 09:53am
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Techs and Team Fouls Count

At first association meeting and of course some basketball officials by nature like to argue and challenging anything said.

I know this is in the book and been discussed on this forum, but I need confirmation before I decide to drop basketball and become a hockey referee even though I don't skate!

All technical fouls count towards team foul count except indirect? I say yes!

All Administrative Techs count towards team foul count? I say yes!

Indirect Tech is always paired with a direct Tech? I say yes!

Correct on all of the above?

Thanks!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 11:04am
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Indirect technical fouls only are about the head coach and who got them as bench personnel. So do not confuse indirect to direct technicals as it relates to the team foul count. Indirects only involve the things that can get a coach disqualified from the game. You do not "technically" call an Indirect technical foul."

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Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Indirects only involve the things that can get a coach disqualified from the game.
True, and also "seated". Correct?
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Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 11:29am
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You are completely correct.

The indirect is always paired with a direct on someone else. You can never have an indirect alone. Furthermore, the two are from one event and recorded as one team foul since only one infraction occurred. It is just that two people are held accountable for the action.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:18pm
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Note that in NCAA not all those statements are true and that might be what is confusing some of the officials.
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Old Sun Sep 30, 2018, 04:20pm
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NFHS/NCAA Chart ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Note that in NCAA not all those statements are true and that might be what is confusing some of the officials.
Freddy posted the differences a few weeks ago.

http://www.nfhs.org/media/1018592/nc...es_2018-19.pdf
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 12:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
At first association meeting and of course some basketball officials by nature like to argue and challenging anything said.

I know this is in the book and been discussed on this forum, but I need confirmation before I decide to drop basketball and become a hockey referee even though I don't skate!

All technical fouls count towards team foul count except indirect? I say yes!

All Administrative Techs count towards team foul count? I say yes!

Indirect Tech is always paired with a direct Tech? I say yes!

Correct on all of the above?

Thanks!
Correct on all.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Freddy posted the differences a few weeks ago.

http://www.nfhs.org/media/1018592/nc...es_2018-19.pdf
AFAIK, direct and indirect technical fouls do not exist in NCAA-M. What they have instead are class A and class B technical fouls. Class A fouls are the unsportsmanlike technical fouls that get charged directly to a head coach, assistant coach, player or substitute, and class B technical fouls are usually for procedural or other offenses (reaching through the boundary and contacting the ball or hanging on the time is a class B player technical foul) that are not necessarily unsportsmanlike. Although head coaches are charged with Class B technical fouls when a person on the bench receives a Class A technical foul, Class B fouls and indirect technical fouls are not the same.

Like indirect technical fouls, class B technical fouls do not count towards the bonus, whether assessed as secondary penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct on the bench by someone not the head coach, or as a primary penalty.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Mon Oct 01, 2018 at 02:13pm.
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Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 09:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
At first association meeting . . .

All technical fouls count towards team foul count except indirect? I say yes!
I don't mean to be snarky or anything, but it seems you're telling us no one of all the basketball officials in attendance at this meeting was able to quickly page through their personal rules book to verify the correct ruling on this issue? Perhaps this was more of a general association business meeting where nobody brings rules books. But I can hardly believe that if this were a "rules meeting" nobody in attendance was able to refer pretty much immediately to 4-19-13 for the correct answer.
Sorry if I failed to grasp the situation there, but . . .
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Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I don't mean to be snarky or anything, but it seems you're telling us no one of all the basketball officials in attendance at this meeting was able to quickly page through their personal rules book to verify the correct ruling on this issue? Perhaps this was more of a general association business meeting where nobody brings rules books. But I can hardly believe that if this were a "rules meeting" nobody in attendance was able to refer pretty much immediately to 4-19-13 for the correct answer.
Sorry if I failed to grasp the situation there, but . . .

You'd be surprised at how much time is wasted on simple rules stuff that goes in local association meetings. Sometimes you need surgery to remove your palm from your face afterwards. And sometimes that issue takes 2 or three meetings.
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Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 10:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
You'd be surprised at how much time is wasted on simple rules stuff that goes in local association meetings. Sometimes you need surgery to remove your palm from your face afterwards. And sometimes that issue takes 2 or three meetings.
You are totally right here. There are many situations where a simple rule has some veteran that will dispute the littlest thing in order to seem like they know something or did not read that the rule changed 5 years ago. Heck, you sometimes question yourself. I know I do somethings mainly because before the season there are rules that never are an issue during the season, but I want to verify the validity. And as a college official, I can sometimes get simply mixed up with certain rules and have to think them through. Usually, I do not announce that at a meeting, I just look them up myself.

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Old Mon Oct 01, 2018, 11:01pm
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School Color ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... some veteran ... did not read that the rule changed 5 years ago. Heck, you sometimes question yourself.
We still have some veterans, especially subvarsity veterans, who believe that, in regard to equipment, "school color" is still in the rulebook.

Personally speaking, I have always contended that the rules aren't a problem, including brand new rules, it's the rule changes that often present a problem.

Rebounders entering the lane on free throws has changed from release, to hit, back to release during my tenure, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for me.

Problems?

Alternating possession throwin that gets kicked (new throwin is non-alternating possession throwin, or an alternating possession throwin?).

Jump ball that is caught by one of the jumpers (lose the ball and lose the arrow, or just lose the ball?).

I mentally screw those up all the time. Luckily I don't get many of those in real games.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 02, 2018 at 02:31am.
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2018, 03:11am
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Nobody's Perfect (Deep Purple, 1988) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... some veteran ... did not read that the rule changed 5 years ago.
Observed two guys last season, both journeyman veterans, who I've worked varsity games with, and who are decent game callers (advantage/disadvantage, game management, primary coverage areas, confident calls, etc.). They put a player on the free throw line after the time has expired for the fourth quarter and the final horn had sounded, when said player's free throws would not have affected the outcome of the game, and they had rebounders on the lane lines.

Nobody's perfect, but I would have thought that one of these two guys would have said to the other, "Wait a minute ...".

I called a double foul last season (two players being knuckleheads early in a physical rivalry game). I seldom make this call and dislike the call for a few reasons, one being that I hate memorizing two numbers with two colors and reporting such (I'm always afraid that I'm going to mix them up, right color, wrong number). I knew that play was going to be resumed from the point of interruption (not from a jump ball, or alternating possession, like in Ancient Times © Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., 2018). On the way to the table I kept saying to myself, "White 40, Blue 20. White 40, Blue 20. White 40, Blue 20". I was pretty pleased with myself that I remembered that play was going to be resumed from the point of interruption, but I confusedly (thinking to myself that the hardest part of the call was reporting the correct fouls) and carelessly gave the ball to the wrong team. Coach incorrectly thought that I used the alternating possession arrow and questioned me when they didn't get the next alternating possession arrow. I wish I had a partner that night that said "Wait a minute ...".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 02, 2018 at 06:19am.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 02, 2018, 01:31pm
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[[QUOTE=BillyMac;1025017]

I called a double foul last season (two players being knuckleheads early in a physical rivalry game). I seldom make this call and dislike the call for a few reasons, one being that I hate memorizing two numbers with two colors and reporting such (I'm always afraid that I'm going to mix them up, right color, wrong number).

LMAO...best reason I heard yet for not calling Double Foul
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