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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 19, 2018, 11:20am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I'm with you. Ideally there shouldn't be any "mandatory" experience years and it should be up to the assigner to use whatever criteria (s)he values (like college officiating). One-size-fits-all policies just don't work. But unfortunately with states/associations that have rating structures like mine, experience requirements are unlikely to go away.
We have a structure too. My point was that we are going to structure ourselves out of having officials to cover games and keeping officials. Or what should be the most important thing, get the very best on the games regardless of who they are or where they might come from. Now here any assignor or conference can hire anyone they want that is licensed. They do not have to use any criteria officials to hire someone for any level game. But for the playoffs we have a structure where the longer you have been in the game, they hire those with certain experience criteria. I do not have an issue with that policy to some extent, but waiting for people to get 20 years in before you assign them major tournament games should not be a standard. Telling official that they should only work so many state finals and now we move on from you is not the best way to have the best officials in the most high profile situations. Standards are great, but let us not have standards that automatically make the deck stacked against some people when they might be the most talented.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 19, 2018, 11:44am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We have a structure too...
The difference between your rating structure and ours is that ours impacts regular season and postseason assignments.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 19, 2018, 12:21pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
The difference between your rating structure and ours is that ours impacts regular season and postseason assignments.
I'm not focusing on the specifics of a system (yours or mine). I am talking about how we prevent officials from feeling like this is something they need to try. One of the reasons people stop officiating high school sports is the systems that are put into place to make roadblocks for their opportunity. When they get certain opportunities they go in those directions rather than stay with the high school game. Often that is the fault of the systems put into place that does not allow them to grow at that level. If you had not noticed, I was stating that our system had barriers to getting certain places and that has had officials say, "I will just work college." They might not get 50 college games, but if they work 25, that might be enough for them. Heck in some cases you get paid just as much for the fewer games.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 06:52am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I'm not focusing on the specifics of a system (yours or mine). I am talking about how we prevent officials from feeling like this is something they need to try. One of the reasons people stop officiating high school sports is the systems that are put into place to make roadblocks for their opportunity. When they get certain opportunities they go in those directions rather than stay with the high school game. Often that is the fault of the systems put into place that does not allow them to grow at that level. If you had not noticed, I was stating that our system had barriers to getting certain places and that has had officials say, "I will just work college." They might not get 50 college games, but if they work 25, that might be enough for them. Heck in some cases you get paid just as much for the fewer games.

Peace
I noticed completely what you were trying to say and agree with you. I was only pointing out the major difference between our two states' rating systems.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 01:34pm
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This makes sense, that there are artificial barriers in place to people moving up. If there are fewer officials, period, this is problematic, because it prevents games from being covered. There are several possibilities to get around this: take "ready-made" officials from college/university intramural programs, recruit downward by getting local college officials to work high school games on their days off and to mentor high school officials, or accelerate newer officials judiciously by providing targeted training (put subvarsity officials in a program to teach 3P mechanics and have them work rec/travel/adult games that would otherwise be 2P as 3P games for experience, with spot varsity assignments to the best trainees/those near the end of the program, or assign MS officials to work 8th/9th grade rec/travel games, with some freshman/JV assignments to get the best of them next-level exposure. Those with existing experience (transfers/dual members/intramural officials) can be evaluated and accelerated as needed).

Any other solutions to alleviate the numbers crunch and reduce artificial constraints? Recruiting college officials down might put experienced officials in the playoffs or on high-profile games, while allowing younger officials to work alongside and learn from them.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This makes sense, that there are artificial barriers in place to people moving up. If there are fewer officials, period, this is problematic, because it prevents games from being covered. There are several possibilities to get around this: take "ready-made" officials from college/university intramural programs, recruit downward by getting local college officials to work high school games on their days off and to mentor high school officials, or accelerate newer officials judiciously by providing targeted training (put subvarsity officials in a program to teach 3P mechanics and have them work rec/travel/adult games that would otherwise be 2P as 3P games for experience, with spot varsity assignments to the best trainees/those near the end of the program, or assign MS officials to work 8th/9th grade rec/travel games, with some freshman/JV assignments to get the best of them next-level exposure. Those with existing experience (transfers/dual members/intramural officials) can be evaluated and accelerated as needed).

Any other solutions to alleviate the numbers crunch and reduce artificial constraints? Recruiting college officials down might put experienced officials in the playoffs or on high-profile games, while allowing younger officials to work alongside and learn from them.
There are plenty of good ideas, none of them are going to work. I live in an area where 2 NBA refs are actively recruiting and assigning officials to work games from the lowest levels all the way up to 2 independent 4-year colleges. We are still struggling to:
#1 get officials on the roster
#2 get officials to take training seriously.

We are on a downward slide in officiating that I don't think we're ever going to recover from.
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Sep 20, 2018 at 03:48pm.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 03:19pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I noticed completely what you were trying to say and agree with you. I was only pointing out the major difference between our two states' rating systems.
We have a lot of differences around the country. Not surprised by the multiple differences anymore I guess.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 03:26pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We have a lot of differences around the country. Not surprised by the multiple differences anymore I guess.
Nor am I. And I didn't realize it until I joined the Forum.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 03:52pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This makes sense, that there are artificial barriers in place to people moving up. If there are fewer officials, period, this is problematic, because it prevents games from being covered. There are several possibilities to get around this: take "ready-made" officials from college/university intramural programs, recruit downward by getting local college officials to work high school games on their days off and to mentor high school officials, or accelerate newer officials judiciously by providing targeted training (put subvarsity officials in a program to teach 3P mechanics and have them work rec/travel/adult games that would otherwise be 2P as 3P games for experience, with spot varsity assignments to the best trainees/those near the end of the program, or assign MS officials to work 8th/9th grade rec/travel games, with some freshman/JV assignments to get the best of them next-level exposure. Those with existing experience (transfers/dual members/intramural officials) can be evaluated and accelerated as needed).

I have some experience with college intramural officials as one of my better friends runs an intermural program on a major college campus. One of the issues with officials from those programs is they often do not have the transportation or the time to work games all the way out. This is especially true if they do not have the desire or commitment to the craft yet. But those that get the bug often do very well, but it is getting those out of their comfort zone to officiate real games. The intermural environment is very different than a game where the bullet are really flying in an actual middle school or high school environment. My friend had done a lot to get those officials to work games and it often does not work for most. Again the behavior of the participants and fans often is the main deterrent to those getting into the profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Any other solutions to alleviate the numbers crunch and reduce artificial constraints? Recruiting college officials down might put experienced officials in the playoffs or on high-profile games while allowing younger officials to work alongside and learn from them.
I do feel we need to do a better job to recruit younger officials. The problem is again that younger people do not see the desire to get into officiating in any sport. They do not see the value in being apart of a sport that they played. We even have a harder time to get young women that played the sport. Often the people that officiate are men that never played the game at any significant level in the first place. Most of the people we get here are men that who watched a child play sports in high school or college and then they get into officiating to stay connected to the sport.

I run a "Beginning Officials Class" and almost all the new students are people in the classes are in their 40s and older.

Peace
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 03:59pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do feel we need to do a better job to recruit younger officials. The problem is again that younger people do not see the desire to get into officiating in any sport. They do not see the value in being apart of a sport that they played.
Maybe we need another recession? We got a lot of new officials back in 2009-2010. There was a waiting list to get trained. Turned many away.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Sep 20, 2018 at 04:04pm.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 06:54pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post


I do feel we need to do a better job to recruit younger officials.
I agree. I found it especially difficult to recruit in rural areas. The younger guys I know who actually have interest will not do it because they have young families. We drive 100+ miles to do games sometimes. That is a lot of time away from home. It is only going to get worse as older guys retire.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 10:23pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
We drive 100+ miles to do games sometimes.
That's crazy. My longest trip (one way) is 55 miles.

I hope that you get to work one of those boy/girl doubleheaders after such a long journey, and/or get mileage.

Wasn't there a Forum member a few years ago that used to take airplane trips to his games in Alaska? That's also crazy.

I worked a game a few years ago where the visiting team took the ferry from Fishers Island, a small island in Long Island Sound (between Connecticut and Long Island, New York) to Connecticut. Fishers Island School only has about 70 students total, from kindergarten to twelfth grade. Now that was also crazy. I wonder who works their home games and what teams take the ferry to play Fishers Island School?
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 10:36pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
That's crazy. My longest trip (one way) is 55 miles.

I hope that you get to work one of those boy/girl doubleheaders after such a long journey, and/or get mileage.

Wasn't there a Forum member a few years ago that used to take airplane trips to his games in Alaska? That's also crazy.

I worked a game a few years ago where the visiting team took the ferry from Fishers Island, a small island in Long Island Sound (between Connecticut and Long Island, New York) to Connecticut. Fishers Island School only has about 70 students total, from kindergarten to twelfth grade. Now that was also crazy. I wonder who works their home games and what teams take the ferry to play Fishers Island School?
Double header varsity games are nice but most nights they are not DH. Pay is about $90 for a jv/varsity game. One guy will usually get milage so we try to ride with each other most times. There are times when the officials come from different towns and some schools will pay us each milage. Our trips are 30-100+ miles (one way). The furthest I traveled last year was 180 miles (one way) for a DH. A friend of mine had a guy back out so I stepped up. That milage check was nice but my whole day was lost. I am not sure it was worth it. I don't think I would do it again.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 10:49pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The furthest I traveled last year was 180 miles (one way) for a DH.
That's insane. Connecticut is only 120 miles wide at it's widest.

Book a seat on one of those puddle jumpers, like they do in Alaska.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Pay is about $90 for a jv/varsity game.
Please tell me that that's the pay for each game of the jv/varsity doubleheader, not the pay for both games.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 20, 2018, 11:01pm
CJP CJP is offline
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No. The going rates that most schools in the area pay are $60 for a varsity game and $30 for a JV game. There are some schools that pay a little more because they realize guys have to travel farther to get to the games.
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