Player and Referee Brawl

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Paintguru

IUgrad92 is spot on. Do the teachers or other school personnel disengage the student or charge back at them?

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different.

If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

This.

Originally Posted by Paintguru

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different. If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

And, this.

[sdoebler]

It's hard to say what will be done in the moment. Another similar video that was posted within the last year was an off duty police officer shoving a teenage female official. Calmer heads should prevail but you never know what will be done by players or officials when unique situations filled with adrenaline arise.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

It's hard to say what will be done in the moment. Another similar video that was posted within the last year was an off duty police officer shoving a teenage female official. Calmer heads should prevail but you never know what will be done by players or officials when unique situations filled with adrenaline arise.

Agreed. Noone can ever definitively predict with 100% accuracy what will or won't happen in situations like this.

However, that is not the point.

Even though this particular forum's posts are dominated by regulars, there are even more officials, coaches, and probably some parents & players that lurk (many who are inexperienced officials or potential new officials/considering joining the fraternity).

At the very least, the content of answers coming from experienced officials should reflect best practices rather than excusing, dismissing or even indulging ego and/or fulfilling the desire to show someone what's what when in a seemingly overwhelming situation - regardless of whether or not the incident occurred in an NFHS game or on a "glorified playground".

I could be way off with that assessment/opinion, but, this forum - for the most part - has proven to be extremely educational and helpful in it's content. But, some of the responses in this thread are, at the very least, head-scratchers, if not outright jaw droppers.

[SC Official]

Spare me.

Defending oneself = ego. Laughable.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Spare me.

Defending oneself = ego. Laughable.

I have to assume you either didn't watch the video with a critical eye or was involved or know someone that was. Probably the former.

[Rich]

I speak as someone who was threatened after a baseball game by a parent years ago.

I could've run to the car and drove away, but I had gear on and it just seemed a bit ridiculous to run from a place where I just made $50 working a 3 hour baseball game. I wanted to change clothes and not deal with idiots.

So I told the guy I'd drop him with my mask and then I'd call the police to have him arrested afterwards. Would I have? No idea. He walked away. I think he thought I was a little bit crazy.

Could I have reacted "better"? At that moment, I simply didn't care.

Too much blaming the victim going on here. These officials were the VICTIMS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I speak as someone who was threatened after a baseball game by a parent years ago.

I could've run to the car and drove away, but I had gear on and it just seemed a bit ridiculous to run from a place where I just made $50 working a 3 hour baseball game. I wanted to change clothes and not deal with idiots.

So I told the guy I'd drop him with my mask and then I'd call the police to have him arrested afterwards. Would I have? No idea. He walked away. I think he thought I was a little bit crazy.

Could I have reacted "better"? At that moment, I simply didn't care.

Too much blaming the victim going on here. These officials were the VICTIMS.

And baseball is similar to summer basketball or the kinds of events shown in this situation. Often you have no place to go and several times in baseball I was confronted or by a partner that was confronted about something after a game. Often you had to say things to make them think you were either a little crazy or that you threaten to call the police. People usually are not froggy enough to do anything, but I am not taking a chance. And walking away does not always solve the issue some of these people think it will. They are just lucky they did not have to deal with a situation.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Rich

I speak as someone who was threatened after a baseball game by a parent years ago.

I could've run to the car and drove away, but I had gear on and it just seemed a bit ridiculous to run from a place where I just made $50 working a 3 hour baseball game. I wanted to change clothes and not deal with idiots.

So I told the guy I'd drop him with my mask and then I'd call the police to have him arrested afterwards. Would I have? No idea. He walked away. I think he thought I was a little bit crazy.

Could I have reacted "better"? At that moment, I simply didn't care.

Too much blaming the victim going on here. These officials were the VICTIMS.

Unfortunately, that example does not relate to the OP. There HAS to be clarity and recognition that dealing with minors (under the age of 18) and adults is incredibly different.

Here's a few comments from legal professionals as it relates to an adult asking if he has the right to fight back against a 16 year old, if the kid initiated a physical confrontation. Take heed. You may not like it, but it's reality. In addition, you likely would not be officiating youth sports anymore, especially if your engagement in the violence causes harm to a minor.

"It is simply better to turn away and not engage him. You can only use self defense as a defense when charged with a crime. What you are contemplating is actually being arrested and charged with harassment or third degree assault and then raising self defense as an affirmative defense. My suggestion is to not expose yourself to a night or weekend in jail, pretrial serves, posting bond, hiring an attorney, etc. Any incident could very well be viewed by law enforcement as at least disorderly conduct of having a mutual fight. You simply don't want to go down this long and expensive path. No one is going to advise you as an adult to strike anyone, let alone a child."

"Nothing but bad things will come from you striking a 16 year old."

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I have to assume you either didn't watch the video with a critical eye or was involved or know someone that was. Probably the former.

I'm simply going to give the official the benefit of the doubt given what these types of events are known for. You've chosen not to.

Glad to know you're holier than thou. Hope you're not my partner if I'm ever in a situation like this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Glad to know you're holier than thou. Hope you're not my partner if I'm ever in a situation like this.

Exactly and that is the point of this. I do not want to work with people that think we only should walk away when we have nowhere to go. Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and it does not often relate to actual violence, but if they believe they can just run up on you without response, they will.

Peace

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I'm simply going to give the official the benefit of the doubt given what these types of events are known for.

You've chosen not to.

Fair enough.

And, I have definitely chosen to doubt the officials involved exercised common sense before and during the incident.

But, I think there is a lot to be learned for anyone and everyone that has viewed the clip and has read this thread.

Originally Posted by SC Official

Hope you're not my partner if I'm ever in a situation like this.

I will continue to live comfortably with that for a whole lot of reasons.