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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 06:10am
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Additional Casebook Play ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The casebook has a play stating that it is a violation when the player releases the ball.
Is it 4.15.1 SITUATION C, or is there an additional casebook play? Another casebook play would be swell, said the Beaver to Wally.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 04:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post


(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)


4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".
I disagree. I feel that it does say something about the the ball being touched a second time with "...which ended when A1 caught the ball." You feel that "starts a dribble" is the key when IMO, "..which ended when.." is also paramount. That is the violation for a second dribble, the complete act, not just the start of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
he is just being picky.
Um, no kidding. Apparently you glossed over my post and missed the part where I indicated "Technically,...."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Camron and I were on the same side then too.
And I guarantee that neither one of you would call anything until the ball was touched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?
4.44.3 Sit C for tossing from one hand to the other. See rule (you cited already) 4-15 art 4 and case 4.15.4.Sit C for twice touch stuff.


There are instances where the books (rule and/or case) indicate "starts a dribble" (note a verb) is the issue but then that same case will have a ruling that indicates the violation is a "second dribble" (note a noun). Case 4.15.1.Sit C is a perfect example.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 06:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I disagree. I feel that it does say something about the the ball being touched a second time with "...which ended when A1 caught the ball." You feel that "starts a dribble" is the key when IMO, "..which ended when.." is also paramount. That is the violation for a second dribble, the complete act, not just the start of it.
Then ended element is there to distinguish that the next act is a new dribble. The second dribble need never end for it to be a violation, it only needs to be started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
And I guarantee that neither one of you would call anything until the ball was touched.
You'd be wrong. I've called it and I'll call it again. If it leaves the hand looking like the million dribbles I've seen before it, it is a dribble. If it leaves the hand looking like the million passes I've seen before it, it is a pass.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Then ended element is there to distinguish that the next act is a new dribble. The second dribble need never end for it to be a violation, it only needs to be started.
Then you are not following case citations. You are going only by, and quite strictly, the rule book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You'd be wrong. I've called it and I'll call it again. If it leaves the hand looking like the million dribbles I've seen before it, it is a dribble. If it leaves the hand
looking like the million passes I've seen before it, it is a pass.
That's just it, these plays are not ones you have seen millions of times, which is why you would not call anything until it was touched again.

You have not seen players throw the ball off the backboard to themselves millions of times. You have not seen a shooter, about to be blocked, drop the ball, millions of times. We have been talking about extremely rare cases.

I can see it now, shooter in the air, about to be blocked, simply lets go of the ball, and TWEET, immediately, before the ball is even close to the floor, you call a violation. I'd love to hear that conversation with the coach as well as see the entire crowd's amazement as to what happened.

Or, player after dribbling to a stop 20 feet from the backboard, clearly throws the ball to himself off the backboard, and you blow your whistle on release, signaling a violation before the ball even hits the backboard. Would love to see that too. Yikes!

Yes, I do recall that thread as well. Boring.


Respectfully, all that knowledge and experience CR and you only go by one set of rules... your own. That is perfectly acceptable however, I will continue to follow the rule and case books, as well as the released interpretations/POEs/comments/etc. Again ,with respect, I simply cannot respond to you any longer.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 07:03pm
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Citations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
4.44.3 Sit C for tossing from one hand to the other. See rule 4-15 art 4 and case 4.15.4.Sit C for twice touch stuff ...Case 4.15.1.Sit C is a perfect example.
4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while
keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over
the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in
(a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor,
the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponentís backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponentís backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1ís foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1ís
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

4-15-4: The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both
hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or
both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control.
e. The ball becomes dead.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in Aís backcourt. The ball hits Bís backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against Bís backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 07:16pm
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Questions, And More Questions ...

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: ...a traveling violation in ... since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Wait? I thought that you could only travel (one rare exception and this is not it) when holding the ball? And there's that pesky ball touching the floor play that keeps rearing its ugly head.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 10, 2018 at 07:21pm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Then you are not following case citations. You are going only by, and quite strictly, the rule book.



That's just it, these plays are not ones you have seen millions of times, which is why you would not call anything until it was touched again.

.
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change direction to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.



No mention of another touch needed in order to have a violation.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Then you are not following case citations. You are going only by, and quite strictly, the rule book.

Respectfully, all that knowledge and experience CR and you only go by one set of rules... your own. That is perfectly acceptable however, I will continue to follow the rule and case books, as well as the released interpretations/POEs/comments/etc. Again ,with respect, I simply cannot respond to you any longer.
You might want to rethink that....

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change direction to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.



No mention of another touch needed in order to have a violation.
There you go. The new dribble and violation occurred when the ball was pushed to the floor.

You may not like it and may not want to admit it but it really is NFHS the rule (not my rule)....and supported by the case play JAR cited above.


The thing you're missing about the case plays you're looking at is they're not defining what is a violation. They're giving play examples, which may include more activity than is relevant, and giving a ruling. That doesn't mean all of the activity listed has to occur to be a violation.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 11:01am.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Is it 4.15.1 SITUATION C, or is there an additional casebook play? Another casebook play would be swell, said the Beaver to Wally.
Yes, this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change direction to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.


No mention of another touch needed in order to have a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: ...a traveling violation in ... since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Wait? I thought that you could only travel (one rare exception and this is not it) when holding the ball? And there's that pesky ball touching the floor play that keeps rearing its ugly head.
I already mentioned in this thread that the NFHS altered the ruling on this play from illegal dribble to traveling about 10 years ago. It should not have done that because now the violation in the ruling no longer meets the actual rules, but Mary Struckhoff never cared about the actual rules!

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change direction to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.



No mention of another touch needed in order to have a violation.
A moot point as other cases, such as 4.15.4 Sit C, specifically mention another touch for the violation to occur.

It also does not mention that it would be an illegal dribble violation. In fact, it uses the words palmed/carried and that is exactly what CR/you/me and every other ref in the world would call on this play. We would blow our whistle and use the palming mechanic. No one would use the illegal dribble mechanic.
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Last edited by bucky; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 02:52pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 02:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
It also does not mention that it would be an illegal dribble violation. In fact, it uses the words palmed/carried and that is exactly what CR/you/me and every other ref in the world would call on this play. We would blow our whistle and use the palming mechanic. No one would use the illegal dribble mechanic.


The violation is the same. The palming mechanic is simply a communication to help describe the play. It was actually removed from the books years ago and then put back again.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 04:48pm
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Theoretically Speaking ...

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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Yes, this one.
4.15.1 SITUATION C is an excellent citation stating that the start of a dribble is the same as a dribble.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It literally contains the words, "starts a dribble, not "dribble", but "starts a dribble", nothing more, no ball hitting the floor, no additional touch, etc.

The rule itself is poorly worded. The casebook play is as clear as a bell.

However, practically speaking, in a real game, I would have a patient whistle to be sure that this doesn't subsequently turn into a bounce pass to a teammate, or a steal by the opponents.

4.15.4 SITUATION A is a pretty good citation stating that the start of a dribble is the same as a dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change direction to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

It states, "attempt to continue the dribble", not "continues the dribble". I not a big fan of "pushed the ball to the floor" at the end of the casebook play, some may quibble about whether, or not, pushing the ball to the floor really means that the ball actually hits the floor.

Theoretically speaking, on a written test, the start of a dribble is the same as a dribble.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, at least until somebody changes my mind, which may be in a few minutes the way that this thread is going.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 04:59pm.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
A moot point as other cases, such as 4.15.4 Sit C, specifically mention another touch for the violation to occur.

It also does not mention that it would be an illegal dribble violation. In fact, it uses the words palmed/carried and that is exactly what CR/you/me and every other ref in the world would call on this play. We would blow our whistle and use the palming mechanic. No one would use the illegal dribble mechanic.
No, the other cases mention that another touch happens and a violation has occurred but they do not say that the violation can't occur without it.

A carry/palm IS either an illegal dribble or a travel depending on the specifics. For long time, the call was just that. They only added the carry signal for clarity in communication. It wasn't a rule change.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:04pm
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Not A Travel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: ...a traveling violation in ... since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Wait? I thought that you could only travel (one rare exception and this is not it) when holding the ball?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I already mentioned in this thread that the NFHS altered the ruling on this play from illegal dribble to traveling about 10 years ago. It should not have done that because now the violation in the ruling no longer meets the actual rules.
So I was right, it's not a travel. right?

Stupid caseplay. Stupid NFHS.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No, the other cases mention that another touch happens and a violation has occurred but they do not say that the violation can't occur without it.
Can't believe I am doing this...sigh. You are incorrect. The word "provided" in the case I cited indicates that the violation can't occur without the second touch.

Even 4.15.4 Sit D indicates the second touch is required with the words "..because the ball was touched twice..."
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Last edited by bucky; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 05:15pm.
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