Dribble ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

A1 (ended dribble) throwing the ball way from himself. No ref is calling anything until A1 touches the ball again.

Agree, maybe it was the start of a pass, but this thread deals with whether, or not, the ball has to actually hit the floor for there to be a dribble (I think it doesn't).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, maybe it was the start of a pass, but this thread deals with whether, or not, the ball has to actually hit the floor for there to be a dribble (I think it doesn't).

The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble. If it doesn't, then it is an illegal dribble. See how that works?
Now go look up the old "air-dribble" which the NFHS banned decades ago. It is why the ball must strike the floor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble. If it doesn't, then it is an illegal dribble.

Doesn't the chicken have to lay an egg before the egg can be deemed illegal? Doesn't it have to be a dribble for it to be an illegal dribble? For a player to dribble illegally, doesn't he have to dribble? He can't be illegally dribbling when he's not dribbling? Maybe he's doing something else? Right?

I see Nevadaref's point (and may actually agree with him) but wish the NFHS rule language made this more clear.

Rule 9 Section 5 Illegal Dribble
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

And, of course, there's always that quote from that ancient basketball clinician, Confucius:

If it's not illegal, it's legal.

Nevadaref, another ancient basketball clinician, seems to be saying:

If it's not legal, it's illegal.

How can one argue with that logic?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now go look up the old "air-dribble" which the NFHS banned decades ago.

https://forum.officiating.com/550795-post36.html

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble.

Technically, not true.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Technically, not true.

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Sigh. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor. Hard to believe that throwing the ball against an official is considered a dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s
backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches
the ball and: (a) passes the ball to A2; or (b) starts a dribble. RULING: The pass
against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the
ball. In (a), the pass is legal action. In (b), it is a violation for a second dribble. (4-
4-5; 9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

[BillyMac]

(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The dribble starts by deliberately pushing/throwing the ball to the floor. That is the control...the deliberate throw/push, not the next action. Nothing about the definition of a dribble requires anything else to happen.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".

I would still wait to be sure that this isn't a legal "bounce" pass, so a second touch would seal the deal for me, but by the book, the second touch isn't necessary.

Nice job Camron Rust. Way to stick to your guns. Nice debate. I learned something. Thanks for your persistence and your patience.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

Ruling: Violation for illegal (double) dribble.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

I've been striving to make the more important point that the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't. (Note for someone being picky and not understanding the general premise of this thread: A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

ART. 4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball
touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 5 A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is
treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.15.4 SITUATION D ... because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

I know that both of these statements are 100% true, but I can't find a citation for either.

Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?

In don't remember failing Basketball Rules 100. Let me check my transcript. I may have to go to summer school. Yikes.