"Hey Ref, that's five seconds!"

[JRutledge]

You did not look up recent rules I see, because almost none of those rules are the current rules. Men's rules changed last year to get rid of closely guarded requirement when dribbling because the shot clock was reduced. The NCAA Men's Committee felt it was unnecessary for the shot clock. Women's changed their requirement for closely guarded a very long time ago in both the dribble and the distance.

I do not expect fans to know the rules if our officials do not know the rules. Either way, it is common that there are differences amongst levels. The same way it is different in football for example and there are many more rules differences in football, but it does not stop people from thinking they know that an NFL rule is not an NF rule.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if our officials do not know the rules.

Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

Then officials need to be smart enough to know that the NCAA or NBA might have a different rules set. We seem to do that very well in football and baseball. Half the time in those sports you would have to tell a coach and even sometimes a fan that they were thinking of a pro rule that in no way applied to the NF rule. There are many more NFL rules differences from the NF, but it does not stop an official to remind a coach, "There is no 5-yard contact rule" or "It is not an automatic first down for a personal foul." And it is not that hard to know these things as a football official. I do not understand why this is hard for basketball officials when the rules are almost identical in many ways?

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropirate).

Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

[JRutledge]

And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

It is not like coaches are real rules experts. They know they are going off of "understanding" not real rules knowledge or study. I had some college coaches during a game this year try to tell me about a clear NBA Rule (I believe they were talking clear path fouls) and when I was adamant about that did not apply to our college game, they shut up for the most part. And I wish I had a dollar every time a slapping of the backboard has a call for the basket to count and I tell them, "This is not Men's college basketball."

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

Usually, it's "okay, thanks. I didn't know the rule was different."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropriate). Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

No. That is not what anyone said to you. You do not have to know the specific application, but if you know Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball. And if closely guarded does not apply at the college ranks when the ball handler is dribbling, you telling me it is hard to communicate that fact? All the communicating you do on this site you cannot figure out that is not an NF rule?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

No one is asking you to be an expert, but come on now. Again if we do it in football where the differences are much bigger and much more detailed, I think a "Student of the Game" and figure out what we see on TV does not apply to most of our games.

This attitude to me is the problem of why we have a high school crew in football not even realize that a college situation took place happened to them later that year. To me, if you are a student of the game you can learn from many areas what applies on TV might not be different or might be a different application of their rules.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball.

Observed one of our best high school guys, also a budding NCAA guy, almost screw up a slapping the backboard call. Simple high school slap the backboard after trying to block a shot situation. One of his partners, the trail, ignored the play, correct by high school rules. The official in question was the lead and didn't see the call. The trail asked my opinion, as an observer, at halftime, and I backed him. The lead started asking questions about possibly counting the basket based on the exact timing of the backboard slap, but I stopped him with, "I believe you're confusing this play with the college rule". I couldn't fully explain the college rule, but I knew there was a different rule. (Good thing he wasn't the trail.)

If that's the basic knowledge that you guys are talking about, then sure, I agree with you. If you expect me to know all the specific ins and outs of all the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences, i.e. know the college rules as well as I know the high school rules, then I will disagree with you.

Also, almost everything I know about NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences (with the exception of the chart in the NFHS manual, IAABO manual, and IAABO pregame card) I learned here on the Forum, not by reading Referee magazine (I don't subscribe), not by watching a lot of college ball on television (not a big fan), and not by reading college rule publications. Thanks Forum.

Private prep schools in Connecticut use a hybrid version of NFHS and NCAA rules. We get a statewide handout every year detailing the important differences. For many years the girls rules had included a three feet closely guarded rule. For the past several years, private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, just rubber stamped the handout, not paying much attention to it. After remembering some posts on the Forum about the rule, this past season I asked my IAABO state interpreter to change three feet to six feet to once again match the NCAA rules. Private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, and high school officials, including guys who also worked womens college games, didn't seem to know, or care, that the rule changed. I cared, and the handout was changed, thanks Forum.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school, color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

I've been refereeing long enough to see my share of rule changes. And I have to keep up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level. The number one reason people get rules confused that have changed is because they don't take the time to stick with what's current.

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