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-   -   "Hey Ref, that's five seconds!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103740-hey-ref-thats-five-seconds.html)

Camron Rust Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020291)
That is a big reason. I work in a state where they do not even have a play clock in high school football games. A shot clock is a huge cost and I was told that it might be around $4000-5000 to add to any school. I know many schools that might not be able to pay that let alone pay more to officials. Schools in my state are crying poor about a lot of things that have nothing to do with sports. So I can only imagine this is a hard sell across the country. But the cost is not my major concern with this rule, the application is my concern.

Peace

Schools always cry poor. It is what they do, even when they're flush with money. The Portland school district is on a binge to rebuild ALL of their HSs. Some needed it for sure but they're rebuilding a HS about every two years. They've finished 2. Three more are on the schedule for the next couple of years. They only have 9. They have the smallest class sizes in the state too, by a lot. They all still complain about the money even when they are in good shape financially.

As for shot clocks, I just saw something very interesting...

Form Sautter: The time is now for a shot clock in Nebraska high school basketball | Boys basketball | omaha.com

Quote:

The most recent publicized statistics by MaxPreps in 2014 show the national average winning score in states without a shot clock is 60 points. In states with a shot clock it's 58.5 points. Total scoring averages are higher in states that do not use a shot clock (104.2 combined points per game) versus those that do (101.4).
The shot clock apparently leads to fewer points scored???? That says to me the shot clock, while it increases the number of shots, increases the number of missed shots more than the number of shots it creates. Hmmm.

ilyazhito Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020280)
Make enough trips to high schools that can't run a scoreboard or keep a book properly and you'll think twice about that thought.

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Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

BillyMac Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:14pm

Application ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020291)
But the cost is not my major concern with this rule, the application is my concern.

State interscholastic sports governing bodies, athletic directors, school principals, and boards of education, are concerned with the cost. Many officials are concerned about the application.

I only work a few private prep school games a season, they use a shot clock for all their varsity games, and there's always a problem with the shot clock operator. Literally, always.

If we ever go to a universal shot clock, I can live up to my end of the bargain and learn the rules like the back of my hand, I'm not sure I can say that about the shot clock operators, especially in middle school, freshmen, and junior varsity games. And as important as we believe varsity games are (they count), there are certainly a lot more subvarsity games than there are varsity games, and those poor officials may have to deal with subpar shot clock operators.

(Full disclosure. I'm biased. I like the high school game just the way it is, with no shot clock, as God intended.)

Raymond Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

A city doesn't have to be large to be urban. And a school district does not have to be part of an urban area to be poor.

And none of those factors matter as far as whether or not tables are competent at what they do.



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Rich Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

It's a solution in search of an actual problem.

Here I was at an area meeting and an AD actually suggested that we go back to 2 officials to help fund the shot clock. Later this season, that school opened a brand new gym, the biggest and likely most expensive HS gym in the state.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

Illinois funds their schools mostly by property taxes. So if you have a place that does not have high taxes, then you might not have a well funded school district. And often rural schools are the ones struggling, not the urban ones.

Peace

ilyazhito Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:02pm

Well, MD and WA did it, but then they were early adopters of a girls shot clock, so they already had the necessary infrastructure in place. MD, WA, ND, SD, MA, NY, RI, and CA (and DC) all adopted a shot clock, and many of these states have significant numbers of rural areas and rural school districts. Somehow, they did it (especially ND and SD), so if 8 states with significant portions of the population in rural areas did it, I wouldn't be surprised to see the other 42 states catch on. Anyway, a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule (in WCAC girls and DC public school games, I only have to enforce the closely guarded rule on a held ball).

grunewar Tue Apr 03, 2018 07:08am

With teachers in several states walking off the job seeking higher wages and improved classroom environments and tools, shot clocks are probably not a current priority for many.

bob jenkins Tue Apr 03, 2018 07:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020277)
Solution: Adopt a 30 second shot clock nationally at the high school level. This will finish the closely guarded on a dribble nonsense, once and for all:D.

We get your opinion on this. But, your conclusion in this thread doesn't follow at all.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 08:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020312)
Well, MD and WA did it, but then they were early adopters of a girls shot clock, so they already had the necessary infrastructure in place. MD, WA, ND, SD, MA, NY, RI, and CA (and DC) all adopted a shot clock, and many of these states have significant numbers of rural areas and rural school districts. Somehow, they did it (especially ND and SD), so if 8 states with significant portions of the population in rural areas did it, I wouldn't be surprised to see the other 42 states catch on. Anyway, a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule (in WCAC girls and DC public school games, I only have to enforce the closely guarded rule on a held ball).

Did you know North Dakota has the most millionaires per capita of all the states? At least they did when I lived there. I'm a military brat who then served 22 years in the military, I've been to more places than the average individual. I think you are making assumptions about places without knowing what things are really like. Next time you drive down the Eastern Shore of Virginia, let me know if you think those communities look like they have extra money to throw money at high school sports.

And I'll repeat, I have enough trouble with tables getting the basics correct, and I work for 2 separate HS boards in 2 separate geographical locations in Virginia.

johnny d Tue Apr 03, 2018 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020303)
Illinois funds their schools mostly by property taxes. So if you have a place that does not have high taxes, then you might not have a well funded school district. And often rural schools are the ones struggling, not the urban ones.

Peace

This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

ilyazhito Tue Apr 03, 2018 09:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020318)
We get your opinion on this. But, your conclusion in this thread doesn't follow at all.

All codes that use a shot clock (NCAA M/W, NBA, FIBA) have no closely-guarded counts on dribblers. NCAA and FIBA only have counts on players holding the ball, NBA only has counts on players in the post with their backs to the basket. THAT is how a shot clock follows this discussion.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1020325)
This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

Doesn't matter what the tax rate is if the people being taxed don't have any money. I work game at high schools that don't even have locker rooms or AD's offices available for us to change in. That includes a team that won a state championship this season. Other schools have gyms that are so inadequate they have to play games at a neutral multi-purpose venue to accommodate crowds, and that venue has no hot water in the locker rooms.

JRutledge Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1020325)
This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

Yeah but other states do not rely so heavily on property taxes to fund schools, they use other funds. So if you are in a rural community that has not a lot of property taxpayers (you would not be if you lived in an apartment for example), then that might be the disparity in why a place like Naperville can afford a lot of things to fund their school and Maywood down the road has a different income bracket.

Peace

LRZ Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:22am

"a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule"

But create administration problems of a shot clock, with sub-varsity and middle school tables? I'd rather have the onus of a closely-guarded count on my shoulders.


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