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-   -   "Hey Ref, that's five seconds!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103740-hey-ref-thats-five-seconds.html)

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2018 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020500)
Thanks for the inside information. As a high school official with only a passing interest in college, or professional, basketball, I just assumed that the "big boys" would have the shot clock down pat, easy peasy lemon squeezy, no problems. If what you're saying is that shot clock problems often exist on the college level, then there's absolutely no way I want these problems occurring on the interscholastic level, especially on the junior varsity, freshman, or middle school level. I don't even want a shot clock in my varsity games, I don't need shot clock problems in games that count. I've got other table things to worry about, like, "Why is the table calling me over when they just told me a few seconds ago that we're not in the bonus?".

College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

And for the record, I just had a D1 official tell me the same basic thing about the tables at that level. There is no care in who is doing these jobs so why do we want to add to our agrivation.

Even though it is not the same sport, the same goes in football games with the play clock. We half the time cannot go a single college game without a few problems with the clock. It is a mess and I have little confidence in the right people doing their job at the table.

Peace

BillyMac Fri Apr 06, 2018 05:35pm

Excedrin Headache Number Thirty ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020501)
College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

Great, now if it's decided to go to a universal high school shot clock, I'll have something else to lose sleep over. Worse for me, it may take several years to go to the shot clock, and by that time (due to age, and orthopedic problems) I'll probably be doing junior varsity, freshman, and middle school games, where the tables are more likely to be less experienced.

ilyazhito Fri Apr 06, 2018 07:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020501)
College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

And for the record, I just had a D1 official tell me the same basic thing about the tables at that level. There is no care in who is doing these jobs so why do we want to add to our agrivation.

Even though it is not the same sport, the same goes in football games with the play clock. We half the time cannot go a single college game without a few problems with the clock. It is a mess and I have little confidence in the right people doing their job at the table.

Peace

Where do you work that you have problems with the table? In my experience, the table people are competent, even when kids run the table for DC public school JV games. In the DC area, you either have experienced clock operators who reliably run the game/shot clocks, or inexperienced operators who understand after I give them their instructions, and they repeat the instructions back to me. If I give "reset" signals every time a reset is needed in the 1st quarter, for the first few possessions, they catch on soon enough and reset the shot clock correctly without reminders.

If you can have competent tables (either from veterans who do this every year, or from kids that are able/eager to learn), then the shot clock should not be a problem. I have only had one situation last season in a regular season game where the shot clock needed to be corrected, and that was when it was improperly reset. If the shot clock can be implemented without problems, then having that + closely guarded on a held ball only would be the best way to ensure consistency on 5-second calls.

Altor Fri Apr 06, 2018 07:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020489)
At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules.

And nearly a million high school kids play basketball every year under NFHS rules. Only a few dozen of them will ever see an NBA or WNBA court.

JRutledge Fri Apr 06, 2018 09:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020506)
Where do you work that you have problems with the table?

In every conference and every other school. The problem is that most of the time they are not big issues. But it is not uncommon to once a game to have a clock not start properly or not stop at all. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020506)
If I give "reset" signals every time a reset is needed in the 1st quarter, for the first few possessions, they catch on soon enough and reset the shot clock correctly without reminders.

First of all, there is no "reset signal" that anyone uses during play. And you do not look directly at the clock every time play is going on. So you may know the clock should reset, but you do not always see it actually reset for at least a few seconds. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession. So if it is off 5 seconds, you might have a violation as a result or not a violation as a result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020506)
If you can have competent tables (either from veterans who do this every year, or from kids that are able/eager to learn), then the shot clock should not be a problem.

How long have you been officiating? Seriously, because every time I get a table with guys, "Oh, we know what we are doing" are the people that often do not know what they are doing. Or a basic situation becomes a bigger problem.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020506)
I have only had one situation last season in a regular season game where the shot clock needed to be corrected, and that was when it was improperly reset. If the shot clock can be implemented without problems, then having that + closely guarded on a held ball only would be the best way to ensure consistency on 5-second calls.

I really do not know what any of that has to do with the shot clock.

Peace

ilyazhito Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020510)
In every conference and every other school. The problem is that most of the time they are not big issues. But it is not uncommon to once a game to have a clock not start properly or not stop at all. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession.



First of all, there is no "reset signal" that anyone uses during play. And you do not look directly at the clock every time play is going on. So you may know the clock should reset, but you do not always see it actually reset for at least a few seconds. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession. So if it is off 5 seconds, you might have a violation as a result or not a violation as a result.



How long have you been officiating? Seriously, because every time I get a table with guys, "Oh, we know what we are doing" are the people that often do not know what they are doing. Or a basic situation becomes a bigger problem.




I really do not know what any of that has to do with the shot clock.

Peace

No "reset" signal? Then what does the signal on page 164 of the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual where you twirl 1 finger mean (or the same signal on page 190 of the CCA Women's Manual)? I typically do not use the signal if I notice that the shot clock is being reset consistently when it should be, but if I have kids, or people who may not know what to do, I give the finger twirl if it is a confusing situation, for clarification. After the first few possessions, even kids catch on, and I don't have to use the signal again for the rest of the game.

I don't look directly at the shot clock, rather I keep it (and the game clock) in my peripheral vision, and am aware of any issues with it, along with any action in my primary coverage area. If there are any issues with the shot (or game) clock, I can stop play if needed to attend to them.

To avert a table of know-it-alls, I ask the table personnel to tell me about their responsibilities before the game begins, when I introduce myself to them. If they can tell me intelligently what they should do, I can trust them. If not, I correct any mistakes, they learn, and the game runs smoother from there. This method works well for kids at the table, and could also be useful if dealing with a "veteran" table.

One of the major objections provided by shot clock opponents is that it is difficult to find competent help at the table for the game clock, so shot clock is an additional layer of complexity. If it can be proven that table personnel are competent, or can become so with adequate instruction and encouragement, then the "shot clock is impossible because of bad tables" argument is moot.

If the shot clock can be implemented, then NFHS can eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble rule, and become consistent with the other levels of basketball.

Hopefully, this post has cleared up your questions.

P.S. I have 3 years of experience, and my past season was a crash course in HS freshman and JV basketball, how to run a shot clock (DC public and private schools use a 30 second shot clock, with women's college rules for that and the 10 second count (except for DC public school girls, who have no 10-second count, and WCAC boys, who use men's shot clock rules)), and 3-man mechanics (intramural basketball), so the situations that I am talking about with the shot clock come from direct experience.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020485)
Honestly, who gives a damn about FIBA? Don't most of the world's best players come from this country?

And I would not get rid of anything without a change of the shot clock provision. If there is no shot clock, then keep the rule the same.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1020215)
As a long time women's college official (34 years) and USA Basketball Official (12 years) I have always thought the NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule requirement of the Defender being within three feet of the Offensive Player in PC of the Ball and only while the Offensive Player is holding the Ball was the better Rule.

The NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule was a NAGWS Rule which was taken from the FIBA Rules.

MTD, Sr.



Jeff:

Don't you remember my history lesson earlier in this thread. The women's college game has used the FIBA Closely Guarded Rule since at least the late 1960s.

MTD, Sr.

JRutledge Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020511)
No "reset" signal? Then what does the signal on page 164 of the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual where you twirl 1 finger mean (or the same signal on page 190 of the CCA Women's Manual)? I typically do not use the signal if I notice that the shot clock is being reset consistently when it should be, but if I have kids, or people who may not know what to do, I give the finger twirl if it is a confusing situation, for clarification. After the first few possessions, even kids catch on, and I don't have to use the signal again for the rest of the game.

Again, can you show me where that signal is used during live ball?

Maybe you need to read page 132 that actually talks about the Shot-Clock Procedure. IJS. Nowhere in that procedure is that to indicate that you give it during a live ball. As a matter of fact, the signal is used in conjunction with other signals before putting the ball back in play when certain things have taken place to reset the clock.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020511)
One of the major objections provided by shot clock opponents is that it is difficult to find competent help at the table for the game clock, so shot clock is an additional layer of complexity. If it can be proven that table personnel are competent, or can become so with adequate instruction and encouragement, then the "shot clock is impossible because of bad tables" argument is moot.

I do not care if the tables are good or bad, I just do not think everything is about other levels. You in this conversation used FIBA Rules as a reason to do something when the best league in the world is played by mostly people that never played under a shot clock or any college rules. I really did not ask you what the argument was, I was giving my opinion. The NF is not going to make a rule that would come with all kinds of logistical issues as stated by me earlier. My state has had school funding problems and adding that additional cost to a sport that is in many cases being considered completely stopped, I do not see that as a viable situation when schools are complaining across this country for books, but you think they are all going to be OK with an expensive shot clock. The NCAA told lower level colleges that they were not allowed to have a couple of years to change the restricted area on the court, but somehow high schools and lower are going to adopt an even more expensive cost than a single making on the floor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020511)
If the shot clock can be implemented, then NFHS can eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble rule, and become consistent with the other levels of basketball.

Honestly, I have never heard anyone care until you made this post. I have never heard a complaint about the usage of a closely guarded rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020511)
Hopefully, this post has cleared up your questions.

P.S. I have 3 years of experience, and my past season was a crash course in HS freshman and JV basketball, how to run a shot clock (DC public and private schools use a 30 second shot clock, with women's college rules for that and the 10 second count (except for DC public school girls, who have no 10-second count, and WCAC boys, who use men's shot clock rules)), and 3-man mechanics (intramural basketball), so the situations that I am talking about with the shot clock come from direct experience.

I have done it 20 years more than you. And I do not do JV and Freshman ball. I do varsity and college and often games are covered by the media on some level. So if there is a mess up in the game or a controversy, it is covered in the media. I even worked 2 State Finals where a reporter said my name directly in at Tweet of a game I was doing in a 4A Semifinal. When mistakes are made at my level they do not just get glossed over, they often get talked about in the paper. That does not happen at the JV level where you are lucky if 20 people will be at the game. In the 4A title game this year, there was an official that stopped the clock because of a noise maker in the building. The game was tied and that stoppage allowed a team in regulation to get the last shot (after the AP gave them the ball) which was not only controversial but debated heavily if the clock should have been stopped or not. If that had happened in a JV game in the middle of December, no one would have cared. That is the kind of thing that would or potentially happen with shot clocks. And it would not be in a couple of states, it would be across the country. How many YouTube videos are made about controversial things in basketball games where there are no clock issues? Well, guess what would happen all over the place if the shot clock was not started or stopped properly and someone loses a game or near loses a game over that situation. And unlike NCAA Division 1 level, they are not going to get a video review to correct the mistake. How many times just in the tournament did the officials review shot/game clock issues? And that is with millions on the line.

Peace

JRutledge Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1020512)
Jeff:

Don't you remember my history lesson earlier in this thread. The women's college game has used the FIBA Closely Guarded Rule since at least the late 1960s.

MTD, Sr.

And since when did Women's basketball set the agenda for basketball? Every Men's basketball rule in college is influenced by the NBA and not FIBA. Heck, most of the talk about rules changes for during the Final Four was to change the shot clock to 24 seconds, get an 8-second backcourt violation and widen the lane. None of these are about FIBA but the NBA influence.

Peace

ilyazhito Sun Apr 08, 2018 06:33pm

You must not have seen the changes in the NIT. The game format was changed to 10 minute quarters (FIBA), the shot clock was decreased to 20 seconds for offensive rebounds (analogous to FIBA going to 14 for offensive rebounds instead of 24). BTW, FIBA initially used the 30 second shot clock now in use in M/W college basketball, only changing to 24 and an 8 second count because of NBA influence. So FIBA is not completely irrelevant.

Back to closely guarded counts, I believe that both June and J.D. will make the subject a point of emphasis for next season, and put those officials who fail to make closely guarded calls on the training video.


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