"Hey Ref, that's five seconds!"
I was wondering why I haven't seen more closely guarded counts in the NCAA tournament, so, I looked it up on-line and found the below explanation. I "assume" it to be correct. If so, this is a PRIME example of why what is watched by fans, helps perpetuate our problems with rules knowledge....
///// A five-second closely guarded violation may be called against an offensive player with the ball when that player is guarded closely for five seconds or more and does not pass, shoot, or dribble within that time. Under NCAA men's rules, to be considered "closely guarded", a defender must be guarding a player who is located in the frontcourt and within six (6) feet of the player. The count applies to a player who is only holding the ball. Prior to the 2015-16 season, the rule included those dribbling the ball as well. This allows for multiple closely guarded counts to occur. NCAA women's rules require the defender to be within three (3) feet and can occur anywhere on the playing court, but only applies when the offensive player is holding the ball. A count ends whenever the player with the ball gets his head and shoulders past the defender, the defender is no longer within the required distance, the same defender does not continuously closely guard the player in control of the ball, or another opponent is between the defender and the ball. High school rules mimic men's college basketball's closely guarded rule. A defender must be guarding the player in control of the ball, in the frontcourt, and must be within six feet of the player. A player may be holding or dribbling the ball. If defensive teammates switch, and both are within six feet of the player in control of the ball, the same count is continued. ///// Certainly helped me understand the differences better. |
Plus the shot clock kinda makes closely guarded irrelevant.
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NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.
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Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...
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The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five second counts may occur on the same ball handler: holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five second count ends when a dribbler gets his, or her, head, and shoulders, ahead of the defender. |
Thanks for the clarification
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Shocked I tell ya! Shocked I am! |
You did not look up recent rules I see, because almost none of those rules are the current rules. Men's rules changed last year to get rid of closely guarded requirement when dribbling because the shot clock was reduced. The NCAA Men's Committee felt it was unnecessary for the shot clock. Women's changed their requirement for closely guarded a very long time ago in both the dribble and the distance.
I do not expect fans to know the rules if our officials do not know the rules. Either way, it is common that there are differences amongst levels. The same way it is different in football for example and there are many more rules differences in football, but it does not stop people from thinking they know that an NFL rule is not an NF rule. Peace |
Different Rules For Different Genders ...
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Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders. In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades. |
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Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropirate).
Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger. |
And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?
It is not like coaches are real rules experts. They know they are going off of "understanding" not real rules knowledge or study. I had some college coaches during a game this year try to tell me about a clear NBA Rule (I believe they were talking clear path fouls) and when I was adamant about that did not apply to our college game, they shut up for the most part. And I wish I had a dollar every time a slapping of the backboard has a call for the basket to count and I tell them, "This is not Men's college basketball." Peace |
Permutations And Changes ...
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I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this? |
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This attitude to me is the problem of why we have a high school crew in football not even realize that a college situation took place happened to them later that year. To me, if you are a student of the game you can learn from many areas what applies on TV might not be different or might be a different application of their rules. Peace |
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If that's the basic knowledge that you guys are talking about, then sure, I agree with you. If you expect me to know all the specific ins and outs of all the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences, i.e. know the college rules as well as I know the high school rules, then I will disagree with you. Also, almost everything I know about NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences (with the exception of the chart in the NFHS manual, IAABO manual, and IAABO pregame card) I learned here on the Forum, not by reading Referee magazine (I don't subscribe), not by watching a lot of college ball on television (not a big fan), and not by reading college rule publications. Thanks Forum. Private prep schools in Connecticut use a hybrid version of NFHS and NCAA rules. We get a statewide handout every year detailing the important differences. For many years the girls rules had included a three feet closely guarded rule. For the past several years, private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, just rubber stamped the handout, not paying much attention to it. After remembering some posts on the Forum about the rule, this past season I asked my IAABO state interpreter to change three feet to six feet to once again match the NCAA rules. Private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, and high school officials, including guys who also worked womens college games, didn't seem to know, or care, that the rule changed. I cared, and the handout was changed, thanks Forum. |
The easiest place to find the rule differences is in the back of the rulebook.
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Preaching To The Choir ...
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Observed two veteran junior varsity officials, both whom have worked varsity games. End of fourth period, tied game, act of shooting foul called with 0:00:00 on clock, and horn sounding. They line up players on the free throw lanes. Free throw shooter makes the first free throw to win the game. Officials have her attempt the second free throw, still with players lined up on the free throw lanes. Do two wrongs make a right? Have they opened up a rulebook since the twentieth century? Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets. |
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A HS only official doesn’t have to master NCAA rules. But I have found that reading through the NCAA rules every few years (not to mention discussing them on this forum) has helped me to give firm but cordial answers to incredulous coaches whose rules knowledge comes principally from television. Saying, “in college you’d be right but the high school rule is ________” can get you a lot of street cred while avoiding unnecessary confrontations. Helps with partners who don’t know the differences, either! Not a requirement for a HS official by any means. But it has helped me. I don’t even read the NCAA case books. Just the rules. Because they are structured in a similar manner to NFHS rules, what’s a little different tends to jump off the page. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I would understand not working high school basketball if I was an official who had moved up to DII/DI and had been receiving a consistent collegiate schedule for multiple years. Then, my high school games would require me to make backward adjustments in mechanics and philosophy, and would require as much conscious effort as college games would for a new JUCO/DIII official. In that case, I would give up working high school, but I am not at that stage yet, personally. I'll need a few years of varsity ball under my belt before I apply to CBOA. About rules differences, what differences do the charts in the NCAA men's and women's books omit, in your experience? About the OP, I believe that there are not many closely-guarded counts because the officials are unwilling to apply the count when the ball quickly changes hands from one player to another. Maybe C and T are unwilling to make calls in the gray area between them, and wait until the ball clearly belongs to one official's zone, or the other's. Perhaps many counts end almost as soon as they start, because the player starts dribbling after possessing the ball in a closely guarded situation, or passes off quickly after ending the dribble. In these cases, officials might not have a chance to start the 5 second count. Maybe this becomes a point of emphasis for J.D. Collins and June Courteau next year. |
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I learned each rule set and ALWAYS apply them appropriately. I have never misapplied a HS rule in a college game or college rule in s HS game. As far as only working college, that's a ridiculous premise unless one is working at least 15-20 D1 games. I've said it before and I'll say it again, guys/gals who are "rulebook" officials master the rules at whatever level they are working. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Praise ...
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IAABO Pregame Card ...
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It's the only part of the card I pay any attention to. If I used the card to run my pregame, it would take a considerable amount of time (it's a very long list) and my partner would throw me under the team bus on our way out the door after out game. Here's the image from the 2017-18 High School Basketball Rules Simplified & Illustrated, note the proper NFHS technique required of the thrower. I believe that IAABO requires the same technique. https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300 |
As a long time women's college official (34 years) and USA Basketball Official (12 years) I have always thought the NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule requirement of the Defender being within three feet of the Offensive Player in PC of the Ball and only while the Offensive Player is holding the Ball was the better Rule.
The NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule was a NAGWS Rule which was taken from the FIBA Rules. MTD, Sr. |
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Don’t you think that’s a little like the pot calling the kettle black? [emoji6] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Also, what I have found is that college guys who kick HS rules also kick college rules.
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I concur and have observed the same "kicking of rules" & "not knowing rules"; this past season one of my partners called "basket interference" after B5 in an attempt to block a shot inadvertently hit the backboard and not even causing a slight wobble--try for goal (layup) was missed. I admonished said partner at halftime. He really thought it was a goal-tending/BI to slap the bb:(:o:confused:
And another one: some of my partners will call "carrying the ball" when the A1 just inadvertently high dribbled (and ball never came to rest on palm) just an odd looking single episode of a high dribble. All fans want this to be a violation---and moan---but alas, legal dribble. I told them halftime that it's not carrying the ball and it will make us look 'bad' as a crew if I'm not calling it a violation but you are calling one. One partner agreed after I showed him the NF rule book reference that I keep in changing bag, the other partner (a 20 year vet according to him) said and I quote "if I see him dribble like that again, I''ll call it the same way". I think we did our best in that particular game at confusing the players, coaches, and fans. |
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I much prefer the NFHS rule to the NCAA/NBA rule. |
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The high school game is adopting a shot clock in more and more states. I think it will be the norm in the future. How long that takes, who knows 10? 20 years?
The push-back that I hear the most is the cost to outfit all of the schools with a shot clock. |
Master ...
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Why should I not be allowed to use the word master before anybody else uses it in reference to those "two rule sets guys"? I should be able to use any word that I want to use to describe such officials, especially when I'm praising them. Now if I'm berating Forum members, then I should be censored regarding the types of words that I use, and if I use the wrong word, I should be suspended, or worse. But when was the last time you saw a post by my me that berated anybody? I'll give you a hint, it was about a Forum member with the initials O and S. I admit it, I lost my patience, and I lost my cool. It was very unlike me, very un-Christian of me. I can't state his Forum name because it's been mentioned twice in the past month, and I don't want to find out what happens if his name is mentioned a third time. That didn't work out very well the movie Beetlejuice. |
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Maybe I should have used the word "proficient" instead of mastered. Mastered implies reaching the pinnacle of success, which can breed laziness, and apathy, in some officials. That's certainly not me, I'm always striving to improve (as a journeyman official, there's always room for improvement), and I don't believe there's a single ounce of laziness, or apathy in your officiating character. |
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As for shot clocks, I just saw something very interesting... Form Sautter: The time is now for a shot clock in Nebraska high school basketball | Boys basketball | omaha.com Quote:
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I only work a few private prep school games a season, they use a shot clock for all their varsity games, and there's always a problem with the shot clock operator. Literally, always. If we ever go to a universal shot clock, I can live up to my end of the bargain and learn the rules like the back of my hand, I'm not sure I can say that about the shot clock operators, especially in middle school, freshmen, and junior varsity games. And as important as we believe varsity games are (they count), there are certainly a lot more subvarsity games than there are varsity games, and those poor officials may have to deal with subpar shot clock operators. (Full disclosure. I'm biased. I like the high school game just the way it is, with no shot clock, as God intended.) |
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And none of those factors matter as far as whether or not tables are competent at what they do. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
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Here I was at an area meeting and an AD actually suggested that we go back to 2 officials to help fund the shot clock. Later this season, that school opened a brand new gym, the biggest and likely most expensive HS gym in the state. |
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Peace |
Well, MD and WA did it, but then they were early adopters of a girls shot clock, so they already had the necessary infrastructure in place. MD, WA, ND, SD, MA, NY, RI, and CA (and DC) all adopted a shot clock, and many of these states have significant numbers of rural areas and rural school districts. Somehow, they did it (especially ND and SD), so if 8 states with significant portions of the population in rural areas did it, I wouldn't be surprised to see the other 42 states catch on. Anyway, a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule (in WCAC girls and DC public school games, I only have to enforce the closely guarded rule on a held ball).
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With teachers in several states walking off the job seeking higher wages and improved classroom environments and tools, shot clocks are probably not a current priority for many.
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And I'll repeat, I have enough trouble with tables getting the basics correct, and I work for 2 separate HS boards in 2 separate geographical locations in Virginia. |
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"a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule"
But create administration problems of a shot clock, with sub-varsity and middle school tables? I'd rather have the onus of a closely-guarded count on my shoulders. |
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I always chuckles when someone thinks apartment dwellers don't pay property tax. They may not write the check to the county directly but they do write it 12 times a year to their landlord. Anyone that thinks that renters don't contribute to property taxes is naive. |
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I wanted to pile on the property tax discussion, but several posters beat me to the punch. Of course property taxes are passed off to renters in some form or another.
MPA Univ of Oklahoma ‘10 I think this thread has run its course, no? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I cannot even believe this is a discussion. I referenced Naperville where I used to live and many people had 5 figure property tax bills and I can tell you I never had that when I lived there for my 2 years. Peace |
Jeff got it sorted out for us.
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I'm kinda slow so I'm going to make sure I'm understanding all you smug tax experts correctly.
Over here we have a cul-de-sac (call it YourHood) which houses ten $1M homes and 20 public school students who attend the Bluebood school district. One mile away on the other side of the railroad tracks there is a run-down apartment building (MyHood) which has 20 units and 40 public school students who attend the Blue Collar school district. Soooo, the same amount of property taxes are being collected from MyHood as are being collected from YourHood? Really? |
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We went from closely guarded to taxes, lol.
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Five Seconds Closely Guarded!!
How did this thread go from the Closely Guarded Rule to property taxes?
Please lets get this thread back on the tracks. MTD, Sr. |
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Re: NCAA, I have watched DIII video, and the officials at that level seem to be consistent in calling the NCAA version of closely guarded (only on players holding the ball). Maybe DI tournament officials got confused, because they have not seen closely guarded situations frequently during the regular season, and do not know what it is when they encounter it. Maybe the NCAA will make closely guarded situations a point of emphasis next year, and this discussion will have borne some fruit ;). |
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ilyazhito, I'm pretty sure MTD's question was rhetorical and bob jenkins' comment was meant as mildly sarcastic.
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I was trying to be gentle, bob. :)
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A Paul Lynde Reference On The Forum ??? No Way???
I'm not sure if I'm on topic, or off topic.
Our IAABO local interpreter has criticized our local officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late. Our IAABO state interpreter has criticized Connecticut officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late. IAABO International interpreters observing our state tournament finals have criticized Connecticut officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late. Why can't they be like we were Perfect in every way? What's the matter with kids today? (Bye Bye Birdie) We'll now return to your regularly scheduled thread about property taxes. |
BillyMac, no need to worry ☺. Why not make a separate thread about property taxes in the General/Off-Topic section, and return this thread to the original topic: closely-guarded counts?
What are Connecticut officials waiting for, that makes them start closely guarded counts late? By the time they finish the count, one of the players will have smacked the other upside the head from boredom (just kidding!). Maybe NFHS, IAABO, and the CIAC should post training videos of closely guarded counts, and use CT officials to show how NOT to do it. Maybe then everyone will learn, after being laughed at by the rest of the country, or IAABO ;). |
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I want to start with the above comments in green. I was not being rhetorical. Now lets address the above comments in red. My very first comment was a history of the Closely Guarded Rule. My personal preference, shot clock or no shot clock, only holding the ball and three feet to be Closely Guarded. And the above blue comment? I am old school and do not believe that game (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's. NBA/WNBA, or FIBA) does not need a shot clock. My personal believe is not meant to elicit comments, pro or con, because my reasons are not important. MTD, Sr. |
I agree that the closely guarded count should only apply to 3 feet and holding the ball, because a player who is within 3 feet of another is in arm's length (the length between both arms for most people is around 6 feet, more for people who are taller), and can impede the other player from advancing and scoring (and the player being guarded has no freedom of movement, being constrained by the rule not allowing him to move his pivot foot). The closely guarded count typically ends when the player being guarded gives up possession, or advances past the player guarding him. A player who is dribbling is able to elude his opponent, either by retreating or advancing by him, and thus should not be subject to the closely guarded count. This is apparently the reasoning that FIBA uses to establish its closely guarded count (the distance is 1 meter (slightly more than 3 feet)), and it would make sense if other codes followed it.
How does 6 feet make sense as a closely-guarded distance? From 2 arm lengths away, a player cannot influence another player's position or restrict his movement in the way that a player 1 arm length (3 ft) (or less) away can. To be consistent, NFHS and NCAA (M) should change their closely-guarded definition to FIBA's (NCAAW had adopted the FIBA definition, and will probably re-adopt it if the other levels adopt FIBA's standard). |
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Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), one of Connecticut's most famous residents, would have called six feet "Mark One". |
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This past year, in an effort to get us to give this possible violation more thought, IAABO International put the "not closely guarded" signal in the IAABO mechanics manual as an official signal. |
"I want to start with the above comments in green. I was not being rhetorical."
My apologies, Mark, for misconstruing your intent. (A sincere apology, not sarcastic---just to be clear!) |
All this hypothetical stuff. As a new official, I was worried about the rules and mechanics that were in place and getting them right.
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His level of questioning for that level of experience is a bit baffling. Some officials are NEVER good enough to work even a HS varsity schedule. This guy's already working college in his mind. |
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It's just a different way of thinking. |
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I hire people from college intramural programs to work varsity games. They are some of my best officials. One thing I will say about all of them is that they are as mechanically sound as anyone and they all seem to have the right attitude about officiating. I do wonder if they have enough experience should things go south, but I guess there's only one way to get that. |
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We exacerbated the shortage and corresponding experience gap with the push for three-person. I’ll take that trade-off every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are copious long-term benefits to this strategy as long as we keep the press on recruiting, retention, and sportsmanship. Sorry, got off topic again... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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27.1. Definition A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an opponent is in an active legal guarding position at a distance of no more than 1 m. 27.2. Rule A closely guarded player must pass, shoot or dribble the ball within 5 seconds. So why do you believe its difficult for a defender to be in LGP for 5 seconds at or within 1 meter when all the offense can do is pivot? |
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That's why the NFHS rule should be changed to the FIBA standard, or at least eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble provision.
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