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-   -   "Hey Ref, that's five seconds!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103740-hey-ref-thats-five-seconds.html)

grunewar Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:44am

"Hey Ref, that's five seconds!"
 
I was wondering why I haven't seen more closely guarded counts in the NCAA tournament, so, I looked it up on-line and found the below explanation. I "assume" it to be correct. If so, this is a PRIME example of why what is watched by fans, helps perpetuate our problems with rules knowledge....

/////
A five-second closely guarded violation may be called against an offensive player with the ball when that player is guarded closely for five seconds or more and does not pass, shoot, or dribble within that time.

Under NCAA men's rules, to be considered "closely guarded", a defender must be guarding a player who is located in the frontcourt and within six (6) feet of the player. The count applies to a player who is only holding the ball. Prior to the 2015-16 season, the rule included those dribbling the ball as well. This allows for multiple closely guarded counts to occur.

NCAA women's rules require the defender to be within three (3) feet and can occur anywhere on the playing court, but only applies when the offensive player is holding the ball. A count ends whenever the player with the ball gets his head and shoulders past the defender, the defender is no longer within the required distance, the same defender does not continuously closely guard the player in control of the ball, or another opponent is between the defender and the ball.

High school rules mimic men's college basketball's closely guarded rule. A defender must be guarding the player in control of the ball, in the frontcourt, and must be within six feet of the player. A player may be holding or dribbling the ball. If defensive teammates switch, and both are within six feet of the player in control of the ball, the same count is continued.

/////
Certainly helped me understand the differences better.

AremRed Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:08am

Plus the shot clock kinda makes closely guarded irrelevant.

bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:55am

NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020148)
NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Yep, the men and women have the same rule.

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BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:58am

Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 1020139)
If so, this is a PRIME example of why what is watched by fans, helps perpetuate our problems with rules knowledge ...

Which is exactly why it's on my list of The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules (NFHS):

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five second counts may occur on the same ball handler: holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five second count ends when a dribbler gets his, or her, head, and shoulders, ahead of the defender.

grunewar Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:10am

Thanks for the clarification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020148)
NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Are you saying the interweb is wrong?

Shocked I tell ya! Shocked I am!

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:11am

You did not look up recent rules I see, because almost none of those rules are the current rules. Men's rules changed last year to get rid of closely guarded requirement when dribbling because the shot clock was reduced. The NCAA Men's Committee felt it was unnecessary for the shot clock. Women's changed their requirement for closely guarded a very long time ago in both the dribble and the distance.

I do not expect fans to know the rules if our officials do not know the rules. Either way, it is common that there are differences amongst levels. The same way it is different in football for example and there are many more rules differences in football, but it does not stop people from thinking they know that an NFL rule is not an NF rule.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:22am

Different Rules For Different Genders ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020153)
... if our officials do not know the rules.

Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020155)
Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

Then officials need to be smart enough to know that the NCAA or NBA might have a different rules set. We seem to do that very well in football and baseball. Half the time in those sports you would have to tell a coach and even sometimes a fan that they were thinking of a pro rule that in no way applied to the NF rule. There are many more NFL rules differences from the NF, but it does not stop an official to remind a coach, "There is no 5-yard contact rule" or "It is not an automatic first down for a personal foul." And it is not that hard to know these things as a football official. I do not understand why this is hard for basketball officials when the rules are almost identical in many ways?

Peace

bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:36am

Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropirate).

Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:48am

And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

It is not like coaches are real rules experts. They know they are going off of "understanding" not real rules knowledge or study. I had some college coaches during a game this year try to tell me about a clear NBA Rule (I believe they were talking clear path fouls) and when I was adamant about that did not apply to our college game, they shut up for the most part. And I wish I had a dollar every time a slapping of the backboard has a call for the basket to count and I tell them, "This is not Men's college basketball."

Peace

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:54am

Permutations And Changes ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jerkins (Post 1020158)
Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropriate). Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

No. That is not what anyone said to you. You do not have to know the specific application, but if you know Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball. And if closely guarded does not apply at the college ranks when the ball handler is dribbling, you telling me it is hard to communicate that fact? All the communicating you do on this site you cannot figure out that is not an NF rule?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

No one is asking you to be an expert, but come on now. Again if we do it in football where the differences are much bigger and much more detailed, I think a "Student of the Game" and figure out what we see on TV does not apply to most of our games.

This attitude to me is the problem of why we have a high school crew in football not even realize that a college situation took place happened to them later that year. To me, if you are a student of the game you can learn from many areas what applies on TV might not be different or might be a different application of their rules.

Peace

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020159)
And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

Usually, it's "okay, thanks. I didn't know the rule was different."

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 03:18pm

Walk A Mile ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020165)
It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 03:33pm

Slapping The Backboard ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020162)
Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball.

Observed one of our best high school guys, also a budding NCAA guy, almost screw up a slapping the backboard call. Simple high school slap the backboard after trying to block a shot situation. One of his partners, the trail, ignored the play, correct by high school rules. The official in question was the lead and didn't see the call. The trail asked my opinion, as an observer, at halftime, and I backed him. The lead started asking questions about possibly counting the basket based on the exact timing of the backboard slap, but I stopped him with, "I believe you're confusing this play with the college rule". I couldn't fully explain the college rule, but I knew there was a different rule. (Good thing he wasn't the trail.)

If that's the basic knowledge that you guys are talking about, then sure, I agree with you. If you expect me to know all the specific ins and outs of all the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences, i.e. know the college rules as well as I know the high school rules, then I will disagree with you.

Also, almost everything I know about NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences (with the exception of the chart in the NFHS manual, IAABO manual, and IAABO pregame card) I learned here on the Forum, not by reading Referee magazine (I don't subscribe), not by watching a lot of college ball on television (not a big fan), and not by reading college rule publications. Thanks Forum.

Private prep schools in Connecticut use a hybrid version of NFHS and NCAA rules. We get a statewide handout every year detailing the important differences. For many years the girls rules had included a three feet closely guarded rule. For the past several years, private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, just rubber stamped the handout, not paying much attention to it. After remembering some posts on the Forum about the rule, this past season I asked my IAABO state interpreter to change three feet to six feet to once again match the NCAA rules. Private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, and high school officials, including guys who also worked womens college games, didn't seem to know, or care, that the rule changed. I cared, and the handout was changed, thanks Forum.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 04:30pm

The easiest place to find the rule differences is in the back of the rulebook.

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Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020175)
I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school, color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

I've been refereeing long enough to see my share of rule changes. And I have to keep up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level. The number one reason people get rules confused that have changed is because they don't take the time to stick with what's current.

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BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 05:37pm

Preaching To The Choir ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020178)
I've been refereeing long enough to see my share of rule changes. And I have to keep up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level. The number one reason people get rules confused that have changed is because they don't take the time to stick with what's current.

Amen. I know guys that haven't opened up a rulebook, or casebook, in years.

Observed two veteran junior varsity officials, both whom have worked varsity games. End of fourth period, tied game, act of shooting foul called with 0:00:00 on clock, and horn sounding. They line up players on the free throw lanes. Free throw shooter makes the first free throw to win the game. Officials have her attempt the second free throw, still with players lined up on the free throw lanes. Do two wrongs make a right? Have they opened up a rulebook since the twentieth century?

Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

bucky Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020177)
The easiest place to find the rule differences is in the back of the rulebook.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

bucky Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)
To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

Imagine Steratore's world. Wow!

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)

Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

I do not think anyone said a thing about mastering all rules sets. I think it is not hard to know that the NCAA changes rules, they have a press release. We as officials usually talk about it here. We usually post the press release and at best an official could read some of the headlines of the changes because you can almost count on the fact that you will hear about them during the season. I know when the NBA changes something or the NFL changes something, I certainly pay attention in those respective sports. But then again, when a coach starts yelling at me about a pro or college rule, I know at least that there is a minor difference. Even when I would do a girls game, you would get women's college rules thrown at you that did not apply.

Peace

crosscountry55 Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)
Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.


A HS only official doesnít have to master NCAA rules. But I have found that reading through the NCAA rules every few years (not to mention discussing them on this forum) has helped me to give firm but cordial answers to incredulous coaches whose rules knowledge comes principally from television. Saying, ďin college youíd be right but the high school rule is ________Ē can get you a lot of street cred while avoiding unnecessary confrontations.

Helps with partners who donít know the differences, either!

Not a requirement for a HS official by any means. But it has helped me. I donít even read the NCAA case books. Just the rules. Because they are structured in a similar manner to NFHS rules, whatís a little different tends to jump off the page.





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ilyazhito Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1020192)
I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

Good idea, but would this be feasible for DIII or JUCO officials who are just getting started in working games under NCAA rules? AFAIK, they have to buy the CCA-approved uniform (more than one, if they work men's and women's basketball), pay for access to the Central Hub ($140 per year for DII/DIII, unless I am mistaken), pay association dues (CBOA for the East Coast), and pay for longer travel than they have usually done at the high school level. I have heard that college football officials operate at a loss, break-even, or small profit for the first few years at the college level, so is the same true for college basketball officials?

I would understand not working high school basketball if I was an official who had moved up to DII/DI and had been receiving a consistent collegiate schedule for multiple years. Then, my high school games would require me to make backward adjustments in mechanics and philosophy, and would require as much conscious effort as college games would for a new JUCO/DIII official. In that case, I would give up working high school, but I am not at that stage yet, personally. I'll need a few years of varsity ball under my belt before I apply to CBOA.

About rules differences, what differences do the charts in the NCAA men's and women's books omit, in your experience?

About the OP, I believe that there are not many closely-guarded counts because the officials are unwilling to apply the count when the ball quickly changes hands from one player to another. Maybe C and T are unwilling to make calls in the gray area between them, and wait until the ball clearly belongs to one official's zone, or the other's. Perhaps many counts end almost as soon as they start, because the player starts dribbling after possessing the ball in a closely guarded situation, or passes off quickly after ending the dribble. In these cases, officials might not have a chance to start the 5 second count. Maybe this becomes a point of emphasis for J.D. Collins and June Courteau next year.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1020192)
I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

I don't know what most do and I don't know what omissions are in the chart. But if someone only does HS and wants to know what may be different concerning a particular rule, the chart is a pretty reliable place to start.

I learned each rule set and ALWAYS apply them appropriately. I have never misapplied a HS rule in a college game or college rule in s HS game.

As far as only working college, that's a ridiculous premise unless one is working at least 15-20 D1 games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, guys/gals who are "rulebook" officials master the rules at whatever level they are working. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:47pm

Praise ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020194)
I do not think anyone said a thing about mastering all rules sets.

I did. I was referring to (and praising) Raymond (as well as many other Forum members), who as both a high school official, and a college official, has obviously mastered both rule sets, or he wouldn't be working many games on either level.

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:57pm

IAABO Pregame Card ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020200)
I don't know what most do and I don't know what omissions are in the chart. But if someone only does HS and wants to know what may be different concerning a particular rule, the chart is a pretty reliable place to start.

IAABO members get a pregame card every year, and it has the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences on it.

It's the only part of the card I pay any attention to.

If I used the card to run my pregame, it would take a considerable amount of time (it's a very long list) and my partner would throw me under the team bus on our way out the door after out game.

Here's the image from the 2017-18 High School Basketball Rules Simplified & Illustrated, note the proper NFHS technique required of the thrower. I believe that IAABO requires the same technique.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:55am

As a long time women's college official (34 years) and USA Basketball Official (12 years) I have always thought the NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule requirement of the Defender being within three feet of the Offensive Player in PC of the Ball and only while the Offensive Player is holding the Ball was the better Rule.

The NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule was a NAGWS Rule which was taken from the FIBA Rules.

MTD, Sr.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 08:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020207)
I did. I was referring to (and praising) Raymond (as well as many other Forum members), who as both a high school official, and a college official, has obviously mastered both rule sets, or he wouldn't be working many games on either level.

Again, you make a simple conversation into a bigger deal.

Peace

crosscountry55 Mon Apr 02, 2018 08:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020218)
Again, you make a simple conversation into a bigger deal.



Peace



Donít you think thatís a little like the pot calling the kettle black? [emoji6]


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Raymond Mon Apr 02, 2018 08:23am

Also, what I have found is that college guys who kick HS rules also kick college rules.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1020219)
Donít you think thatís a little like the pot calling the kettle black? [emoji6]

No. I have many conversations here in the context of the conversation. Billy often suggests something totally that was no where in the conversation. No one said a single thing about having to master all rules in this conversation. They simply said to have knowledge of other levels is a good thing and how to have that working knowledge. It is actually a common thing we do here when talking about my posted videos. I even ask questions in the videos about the level that people work and how the rule applies. I do not assume those that are talking about a play in a college game is incapable of understanding a little difference when pointed out to them in if it is not an exact high school example. Since I post most of the videos and I see people discuss differences all the time, it is clear that most people have a working knowledge of rules at other levels they do not currently work.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020221)
Also, what I have found is that college guys who kick HS rules also kick college rules.

Exactly!!!! I know college guys that do not know basic rules in college and clearly try to enforce college philosophies in high school games.

Peace

Kansas Ref Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:55pm

I concur and have observed the same "kicking of rules" & "not knowing rules"; this past season one of my partners called "basket interference" after B5 in an attempt to block a shot inadvertently hit the backboard and not even causing a slight wobble--try for goal (layup) was missed. I admonished said partner at halftime. He really thought it was a goal-tending/BI to slap the bb:(:o:confused:
And another one: some of my partners will call "carrying the ball" when the A1 just inadvertently high dribbled (and ball never came to rest on palm) just an odd looking single episode of a high dribble. All fans want this to be a violation---and moan---but alas, legal dribble. I told them halftime that it's not carrying the ball and it will make us look 'bad' as a crew if I'm not calling it a violation but you are calling one. One partner agreed after I showed him the NF rule book reference that I keep in changing bag, the other partner (a 20 year vet according to him) said and I quote "if I see him dribble like that again, I''ll call it the same way".
I think we did our best in that particular game at confusing the players, coaches, and fans.

Scrapper1 Mon Apr 02, 2018 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1020145)
Plus the shot clock kinda makes closely guarded irrelevant.

I disagree with this. IMHO, which the rules committee doesn't share, the closely guarded -- when dribbling -- rule prevents one player from dribbling the ball for 25 seconds and trying every move in his arsenal in order to get a shot. I think that the closely guarded rule promotes team play, rather than allowing a possession to devolve into an extended one-on-one contest.

I much prefer the NFHS rule to the NCAA/NBA rule.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1020271)
I disagree with this. IMHO, which the rules committee doesn't share, the closely guarded -- when dribbling -- rule prevents one player from dribbling the ball for 25 seconds and trying every move in his arsenal in order to get a shot. I think that the closely guarded rule promotes team play, rather than allowing a possession to devolve into an extended one-on-one contest.

I much prefer the NFHS rule to the NCAA/NBA rule.

Actually, that was the logic of the committee. They felt there was no need for the closely guarded during a dribble because of shortening the shot clock. And I agree with them as a player dribbling around does not create better offense. During a high school game that would just be keep away and not players able to stop them. Not so much the case at the college level.

Peace

Raymond Mon Apr 02, 2018 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1020271)
I disagree with this. IMHO, which the rules committee doesn't share, the closely guarded -- when dribbling -- rule prevents one player from dribbling the ball for 25 seconds and trying every move in his arsenal in order to get a shot. I think that the closely guarded rule promotes team play, rather than allowing a possession to devolve into an extended one-on-one contest.

I much prefer the NFHS rule to the NCAA/NBA rule.

LOVE that we don't have a "closely guarded while dribbling" rule in college. Shot clock means they will be shooting ball in under 30 seconds. And team cohesion is so much greater at the college level than at the HS level. Players dribble the ball for a reason at the college level.

ilyazhito Mon Apr 02, 2018 04:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020274)
LOVE that we don't have a "closely guarded while dribbling" rule in college. Shot clock means they will be shooting ball in under 30 seconds. And team cohesion is so much greater at the college level than at the HS level. Players dribble the ball for a reason at the college level.

Solution: Adopt a 30 second shot clock nationally at the high school level. This will finish the closely guarded on a dribble nonsense, once and for all:D.

Raymond Mon Apr 02, 2018 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020277)
Solution: Adopt a 30 second shot clock nationally at the high school level. This will finish the closely guarded on a dribble nonsense, once and for all:D.

Make enough trips to high schools that can't run a scoreboard or keep a book properly and you'll think twice about that thought.

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sdoebler Mon Apr 02, 2018 04:22pm

The high school game is adopting a shot clock in more and more states. I think it will be the norm in the future. How long that takes, who knows 10? 20 years?

The push-back that I hear the most is the cost to outfit all of the schools with a shot clock.

BillyMac Mon Apr 02, 2018 04:34pm

Master ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020243)
No. I have many conversations here in the context of the conversation. Billy often suggests something totally that was no where in the conversation. No one said a single thing about having to master all rules in this conversation.

I said that "single thing", "master". Am I a "no one"? The ones who have to master multiple rule sets are those that officiate multiple rule sets, and I'm very much impressed that many Forum members have the ability to do such.

Why should I not be allowed to use the word master before anybody else uses it in reference to those "two rule sets guys"?

I should be able to use any word that I want to use to describe such officials, especially when I'm praising them.

Now if I'm berating Forum members, then I should be censored regarding the types of words that I use, and if I use the wrong word, I should be suspended, or worse.

But when was the last time you saw a post by my me that berated anybody? I'll give you a hint, it was about a Forum member with the initials O and S. I admit it, I lost my patience, and I lost my cool. It was very unlike me, very un-Christian of me. I can't state his Forum name because it's been mentioned twice in the past month, and I don't want to find out what happens if his name is mentioned a third time. That didn't work out very well the movie Beetlejuice.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 05:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020286)
I said that "single thing", "master". Am I a "no one"? The ones who have to master multiple rule sets are those that officiate multiple rule sets, and I'm very much impressed that many Forum members have the ability to do such.

Why should I not be allowed to use the word master before anybody else uses it in reference to those "two rule sets guys"?

I should be able to use any word that I want to use to describe such officials, especially when I'm praising them.

Now if I'm berating Forum members, then I should be censored regarding the types of words that I use, and if I use the wrong word, I should be suspended, or worse.

But when was the last time you saw a post by my me that berated anybody? I'll give you a hint, it was about a Forum member with the initials O and S. I admit it, I lost my patience, and I lost my cool. It was very unlike me, very un-Christian of me. I can't state his Forum name because it's been mentioned twice in the past month, and I don't want to find out what happens if his name is mentioned a third time. That didn't work out very well the movie Beetlejuice.

You can use whatever word you want to use, but that was not the point of what I said. And again the issue I had was not that you used the word, it was that you attributed that to those that you were discussing this with, in other words misrepresenting the conversation or point of view. Just like the "straw man" point of view that anyone accused you of berating anyone. I just took exception in the conversation (not upset in any way) to the fact you suggested that I or anyone said that you must master rules for levels you do not work. Heck, I have not mastered rules at both levels. Many times there are things that never happen and never are a concern. I just do not make big mistakes because I have seen a lot in my 20 years of officiating to know the variations in the rules and study why there are differences. The rules change so much over the years it takes time to realize the impact of certain situations like when the NCAA went to the Class A and B technical foul classifications.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1020282)
The high school game is adopting a shot clock in more and more states. I think it will be the norm in the future. How long that takes, who knows 10? 20 years?

The push-back that I hear the most is the cost to outfit all of the schools with a shot clock.

That is a big reason. I work in a state where they do not even have a play clock in high school football games. A shot clock is a huge cost and I was told that it might be around $4000-5000 to add to any school. I know many schools that might not be able to pay that let alone pay more to officials. Schools in my state are crying poor about a lot of things that have nothing to do with sports. So I can only imagine this is a hard sell across the country. But the cost is not my major concern with this rule, the application is my concern.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:07pm

Proficient ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020290)
Heck, I have not mastered rules at both levels.

I certainly don't know you personally, but from your posts, I believe that you're being humble. You seem to have a great knowledge of the rules, especially in regard to incidental contact/illegal contact/advantage/disadvantage, on both the "book" level, and (from your comments with your many helpful videos) on the practical side of things. You've been a clinician in your area (a job that only our top officials hold here in Connecticut), you've worked state finals in more than one sport, you've successfully moved from womens to mens college basketball (I believe Division I), and (I'm not sure of this) made a geographic move and have maintained a challenging (as from your posts) schedule, not something one does lightly without a great resume.

Maybe I should have used the word "proficient" instead of mastered. Mastered implies reaching the pinnacle of success, which can breed laziness, and apathy, in some officials. That's certainly not me, I'm always striving to improve (as a journeyman official, there's always room for improvement), and I don't believe there's a single ounce of laziness, or apathy in your officiating character.

Camron Rust Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020291)
That is a big reason. I work in a state where they do not even have a play clock in high school football games. A shot clock is a huge cost and I was told that it might be around $4000-5000 to add to any school. I know many schools that might not be able to pay that let alone pay more to officials. Schools in my state are crying poor about a lot of things that have nothing to do with sports. So I can only imagine this is a hard sell across the country. But the cost is not my major concern with this rule, the application is my concern.

Peace

Schools always cry poor. It is what they do, even when they're flush with money. The Portland school district is on a binge to rebuild ALL of their HSs. Some needed it for sure but they're rebuilding a HS about every two years. They've finished 2. Three more are on the schedule for the next couple of years. They only have 9. They have the smallest class sizes in the state too, by a lot. They all still complain about the money even when they are in good shape financially.

As for shot clocks, I just saw something very interesting...

Form Sautter: The time is now for a shot clock in Nebraska high school basketball | Boys basketball | omaha.com

Quote:

The most recent publicized statistics by MaxPreps in 2014 show the national average winning score in states without a shot clock is 60 points. In states with a shot clock it's 58.5 points. Total scoring averages are higher in states that do not use a shot clock (104.2 combined points per game) versus those that do (101.4).
The shot clock apparently leads to fewer points scored???? That says to me the shot clock, while it increases the number of shots, increases the number of missed shots more than the number of shots it creates. Hmmm.

ilyazhito Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020280)
Make enough trips to high schools that can't run a scoreboard or keep a book properly and you'll think twice about that thought.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

BillyMac Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:14pm

Application ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020291)
But the cost is not my major concern with this rule, the application is my concern.

State interscholastic sports governing bodies, athletic directors, school principals, and boards of education, are concerned with the cost. Many officials are concerned about the application.

I only work a few private prep school games a season, they use a shot clock for all their varsity games, and there's always a problem with the shot clock operator. Literally, always.

If we ever go to a universal shot clock, I can live up to my end of the bargain and learn the rules like the back of my hand, I'm not sure I can say that about the shot clock operators, especially in middle school, freshmen, and junior varsity games. And as important as we believe varsity games are (they count), there are certainly a lot more subvarsity games than there are varsity games, and those poor officials may have to deal with subpar shot clock operators.

(Full disclosure. I'm biased. I like the high school game just the way it is, with no shot clock, as God intended.)

Raymond Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

A city doesn't have to be large to be urban. And a school district does not have to be part of an urban area to be poor.

And none of those factors matter as far as whether or not tables are competent at what they do.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Rich Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

It's a solution in search of an actual problem.

Here I was at an area meeting and an AD actually suggested that we go back to 2 officials to help fund the shot clock. Later this season, that school opened a brand new gym, the biggest and likely most expensive HS gym in the state.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020294)
Raymond, I work games in DC, where money doesn't grow on trees for public schools, yet they somehow manage to operate a shot clock and do it correctly. The table personnel is also competent, even though kids usually run the table for the JV games. If an urban public school system with little money and training is able to adopt a shot clock and use it properly, anyone should be able to do it.

Illinois funds their schools mostly by property taxes. So if you have a place that does not have high taxes, then you might not have a well funded school district. And often rural schools are the ones struggling, not the urban ones.

Peace

ilyazhito Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:02pm

Well, MD and WA did it, but then they were early adopters of a girls shot clock, so they already had the necessary infrastructure in place. MD, WA, ND, SD, MA, NY, RI, and CA (and DC) all adopted a shot clock, and many of these states have significant numbers of rural areas and rural school districts. Somehow, they did it (especially ND and SD), so if 8 states with significant portions of the population in rural areas did it, I wouldn't be surprised to see the other 42 states catch on. Anyway, a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule (in WCAC girls and DC public school games, I only have to enforce the closely guarded rule on a held ball).

grunewar Tue Apr 03, 2018 07:08am

With teachers in several states walking off the job seeking higher wages and improved classroom environments and tools, shot clocks are probably not a current priority for many.

bob jenkins Tue Apr 03, 2018 07:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020277)
Solution: Adopt a 30 second shot clock nationally at the high school level. This will finish the closely guarded on a dribble nonsense, once and for all:D.

We get your opinion on this. But, your conclusion in this thread doesn't follow at all.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 08:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020312)
Well, MD and WA did it, but then they were early adopters of a girls shot clock, so they already had the necessary infrastructure in place. MD, WA, ND, SD, MA, NY, RI, and CA (and DC) all adopted a shot clock, and many of these states have significant numbers of rural areas and rural school districts. Somehow, they did it (especially ND and SD), so if 8 states with significant portions of the population in rural areas did it, I wouldn't be surprised to see the other 42 states catch on. Anyway, a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule (in WCAC girls and DC public school games, I only have to enforce the closely guarded rule on a held ball).

Did you know North Dakota has the most millionaires per capita of all the states? At least they did when I lived there. I'm a military brat who then served 22 years in the military, I've been to more places than the average individual. I think you are making assumptions about places without knowing what things are really like. Next time you drive down the Eastern Shore of Virginia, let me know if you think those communities look like they have extra money to throw money at high school sports.

And I'll repeat, I have enough trouble with tables getting the basics correct, and I work for 2 separate HS boards in 2 separate geographical locations in Virginia.

johnny d Tue Apr 03, 2018 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020303)
Illinois funds their schools mostly by property taxes. So if you have a place that does not have high taxes, then you might not have a well funded school district. And often rural schools are the ones struggling, not the urban ones.

Peace

This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

ilyazhito Tue Apr 03, 2018 09:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020318)
We get your opinion on this. But, your conclusion in this thread doesn't follow at all.

All codes that use a shot clock (NCAA M/W, NBA, FIBA) have no closely-guarded counts on dribblers. NCAA and FIBA only have counts on players holding the ball, NBA only has counts on players in the post with their backs to the basket. THAT is how a shot clock follows this discussion.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1020325)
This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

Doesn't matter what the tax rate is if the people being taxed don't have any money. I work game at high schools that don't even have locker rooms or AD's offices available for us to change in. That includes a team that won a state championship this season. Other schools have gyms that are so inadequate they have to play games at a neutral multi-purpose venue to accommodate crowds, and that venue has no hot water in the locker rooms.

JRutledge Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1020325)
This is funny, there are no communities in Illinois where the average property tax is less than twice the national average and in most communities it is somewhere between 4-5 times and tops out over 10 times.

Yeah but other states do not rely so heavily on property taxes to fund schools, they use other funds. So if you are in a rural community that has not a lot of property taxpayers (you would not be if you lived in an apartment for example), then that might be the disparity in why a place like Naperville can afford a lot of things to fund their school and Maywood down the road has a different income bracket.

Peace

LRZ Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:22am

"a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule"

But create administration problems of a shot clock, with sub-varsity and middle school tables? I'd rather have the onus of a closely-guarded count on my shoulders.

Jesse James Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020334)
Yeah but other states do not rely so heavily on property taxes to fund schools, they use other funds. So if you are in a rural community that has not a lot of property taxpayers (you would not be if you lived in an apartment for example), then that might be the disparity in why a place like Naperville can afford a lot of things to fund their school and Maywood down the road has a different income bracket.

Peace

Itís not like the apartment owner would pay property tax or anything.

Camron Rust Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 1020336)
Itís not like the apartment owner would pay property tax or anything.

;)

I always chuckles when someone thinks apartment dwellers don't pay property tax. They may not write the check to the county directly but they do write it 12 times a year to their landlord. Anyone that thinks that renters don't contribute to property taxes is naive.

Rich Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 1020336)
Itís not like the apartment owner would pay property tax or anything.

My goodness, really. What does he think is in the rent people pay? Everyone who lives anywhere pays property taxes, either directly or indirectly.

JRutledge Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 1020336)
Itís not like the apartment owner would pay property tax or anything.

You realize what property taxes are right? You have to own the property to pay personally those taxes and also can be deducted in many cases off of other state or Federal taxes based on the usage of that property. Not the case when you rent, at least not in Illinois. It was not a deduction or part of the overall tax bill when I lived in an apartment.

Peace

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1020335)
"a shot clock would significantly ease administration of the closely-guarded rule"

But create administration problems of a shot clock, with sub-varsity and middle school tables? I'd rather have the onus of a closely-guarded count on my shoulders.

It's a lot simpler to properly administer closely guarded plays than it is to administer a shot clock. I hope that is not to supposed to a major talking point in regards to the need for a shot clock.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020340)
You realize what property taxes are right? You have to own the property to pay personally those taxes and also can be deducted in many cases off of other state or Federal taxes based on the usage of that property. Not the case when you rent, at least not in Illinois. It was not a deduction or part of the overall tax bill when I lived in an apartment.

Peace

Additionally, there are a lot more people per square foot in an apartment complex as opposed single family dwellings. So depending how the property taxes are calculated and the value of the land and structure, there is not a one-for-one trade off between apartment buildings and single family dwellings.

LRZ Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020342)
It's a lot simpler to properly administer closely guarded plays than it is to administer a shot clock. I hope that is not to supposed to a major talking point in regards to the need for a shot clock.

I agree--that was my point. I was responding to ilyazhito's comment, which I quoted, which implied shot clocks would be easier.

crosscountry55 Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:28pm

I wanted to pile on the property tax discussion, but several posters beat me to the punch. Of course property taxes are passed off to renters in some form or another.

MPA Univ of Oklahoma Ď10

I think this thread has run its course, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JRutledge Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020343)
Additionally, there are a lot more people per square foot in an apartment complex as opposed single family dwellings. So depending how the property taxes are calculated and the value of the land and structure, there is not a one-for-one trade off between apartment buildings and single family dwellings.

But the bottom line of all of this, you do not pay directly property taxes when you rent. You are not the owner of the property so you do not get that counted towards your overall tax bill. And it is state and jurisdiction run in Illinois, not from the Federal Government.

I cannot even believe this is a discussion. I referenced Naperville where I used to live and many people had 5 figure property tax bills and I can tell you I never had that when I lived there for my 2 years.

Peace

Jesse James Tue Apr 03, 2018 01:31pm

Jeff got it sorted out for us.

Raymond Tue Apr 03, 2018 04:17pm

I'm kinda slow so I'm going to make sure I'm understanding all you smug tax experts correctly.

Over here we have a cul-de-sac (call it YourHood) which houses ten $1M homes and 20 public school students who attend the Bluebood school district. One mile away on the other side of the railroad tracks there is a run-down apartment building (MyHood) which has 20 units and 40 public school students who attend the Blue Collar school district. Soooo, the same amount of property taxes are being collected from MyHood as are being collected from YourHood? Really?

#olderthanilook Tue Apr 03, 2018 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020355)
I'm kinda slow so I'm going to make sure I'm understanding all you smug tax experts correctly.

Over here we have a cul-de-sac (call it YourHood) which houses ten $1M homes and 20 public school students who attend the Bluebood school district. One mile away on the other side of the railroad tracks there is a run-down apartment building (MyHood) which has 20 units and 40 public school students who attend the Blue Collar school district. Soooo, the same amount of property taxes are being collected from MyHood as are being collected from YourHood? Really?

There are heckuva lot of people in this country that, indeed, say this is the way it works.

bucky Tue Apr 03, 2018 05:26pm

We went from closely guarded to taxes, lol.

Camron Rust Tue Apr 03, 2018 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020355)
I'm kinda slow so I'm going to make sure I'm understanding all you smug tax experts correctly.

Over here we have a cul-de-sac (call it YourHood) which houses ten $1M homes and 20 public school students who attend the Bluebood school district. One mile away on the other side of the railroad tracks there is a run-down apartment building (MyHood) which has 20 units and 40 public school students who attend the Blue Collar school district. Soooo, the same amount of property taxes are being collected from MyHood as are being collected from YourHood? Really?

Certainly not the same amount of money but everyone that is paying anything for just about anything is paying some amount that goes to property taxes. It is built into the price. Being hidden in the price is a clever way to keep people form realizing how much tax is really paid.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Apr 03, 2018 07:45pm

Five Seconds Closely Guarded!!
 
How did this thread go from the Closely Guarded Rule to property taxes?

Please lets get this thread back on the tracks.

MTD, Sr.

ilyazhito Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1020363)
How did this thread go from the Closely Guarded Rule to property taxes.

Please lets get this thread back on the tracks.

MTD, Sr.

I made the argument that the shot clock would simplify administration of the closely guarded rule, because the closely-guarded rule does not apply to dribblers in any code that uses the shot clock. From there, various posters started making arguments about the feasibility (or lack thereof) of adopting a shot clock in NFHS.

Re: NCAA, I have watched DIII video, and the officials at that level seem to be consistent in calling the NCAA version of closely guarded (only on players holding the ball). Maybe DI tournament officials got confused, because they have not seen closely guarded situations frequently during the regular season, and do not know what it is when they encounter it. Maybe the NCAA will make closely guarded situations a point of emphasis next year, and this discussion will have borne some fruit ;).

Raymond Wed Apr 04, 2018 07:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020367)
I made the argument that the shot clock would simplify administration of the closely guarded rule, because the closely-guarded rule does not apply to dribblers in any code that uses the shot clock. From there, various posters started making arguments about the feasibility (or lack thereof) of adopting a shot clock in NFHS.

Re: NCAA, I have watched DIII video, and the officials at that level seem to be consistent in calling the NCAA version of closely guarded (only on players holding the ball). Maybe DI tournament officials got confused, because they have not seen closely guarded situations frequently during the regular season, and do not know what it is when they encounter it. Maybe the NCAA will make closely guarded situations a point of emphasis next year, and this discussion will have borne some fruit ;).

I will say I have noticed my College/HS buddies sometimes forget to give closely guarded counts on dribblers when they work HS ball. I think I brought it up a couple of times at halftime this season that we need to remember have a count.

bob jenkins Wed Apr 04, 2018 08:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1020358)
We went from closely guarded to taxes, lol.

A shot clock and a paid observer at all JH games would prevent that.

ilyazhito Wed Apr 04, 2018 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020380)
A shot clock and a paid observer at all JH games would prevent that.

You stole my line:)! I said that in the HS Shot Clock Thread ;).

LRZ Wed Apr 04, 2018 03:31pm

ilyazhito, I'm pretty sure MTD's question was rhetorical and bob jenkins' comment was meant as mildly sarcastic.

bob jenkins Wed Apr 04, 2018 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1020409)
ilyazhito, I'm pretty sure MTD's question was rhetorical and bob jenkins' comment was meant as mildly sarcastic.

Incorrect. ;)

LRZ Wed Apr 04, 2018 04:10pm

I was trying to be gentle, bob. :)

BillyMac Wed Apr 04, 2018 04:40pm

A Paul Lynde Reference On The Forum ??? No Way???
 
I'm not sure if I'm on topic, or off topic.

Our IAABO local interpreter has criticized our local officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late.

Our IAABO state interpreter has criticized Connecticut officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late.

IAABO International interpreters observing our state tournament finals have criticized Connecticut officials for starting their five second closely guarded count too late.

Why can't they be like we were
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?

(Bye Bye Birdie)

We'll now return to your regularly scheduled thread about property taxes.

ilyazhito Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:31pm

BillyMac, no need to worry ☺. Why not make a separate thread about property taxes in the General/Off-Topic section, and return this thread to the original topic: closely-guarded counts?
What are Connecticut officials waiting for, that makes them start closely guarded counts late? By the time they finish the count, one of the players will have smacked the other upside the head from boredom (just kidding!). Maybe NFHS, IAABO, and the CIAC should post training videos of closely guarded counts, and use CT officials to show how NOT to do it. Maybe then everyone will learn, after being laughed at by the rest of the country, or IAABO ;).

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1020215)
As a long time women's college official (34 years) and USA Basketball Official (12 years) I have always thought the NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule requirement of the Defender being within three feet of the Offensive Player in PC of the Ball and only while the Offensive Player is holding the Ball was the better Rule.

The NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule was a NAGWS Rule which was taken from the FIBA Rules.


MTD, Sr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020327)
All codes that use a shot clock (NCAA M/W, NBA, FIBA) have no closely-guarded counts on dribblers. NCAA and FIBA only have counts on players holding the ball, NBA only has counts on players in the post with their backs to the basket. THAT is how a shot clock follows this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1020363)
How did this thread go from the Closely Guarded Rule to property taxes?

Please lets get this thread back on the tracks.


MTD, Sr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020367)
I made the argument that the shot clock would simplify administration of the closely guarded rule, because the closely-guarded rule does not apply to dribblers in any code that uses the shot clock. From there, various posters started making arguments about the feasibility (or lack thereof) of adopting a shot clock in NFHS.

Re: NCAA, I have watched DIII video, and the officials at that level seem to be consistent in calling the NCAA version of closely guarded (only on players holding the ball). Maybe DI tournament officials got confused, because they have not seen closely guarded situations frequently during the regular season, and do not know what it is when they encounter it. Maybe the NCAA will make closely guarded situations a point of emphasis next year, and this discussion will have borne some fruit ;).

[QUOTE=LRZ;1020409]ilyazhito, I'm pretty sure MTD's question was rhetorical and bob jenkins' comment was meant as mildly sarcastic.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020411)
Incorrect. ;)


I want to start with the above comments in green. I was not being rhetorical.


Now lets address the above comments in red. My very first comment was a history of the Closely Guarded Rule. My personal preference, shot clock or no shot clock, only holding the ball and three feet to be Closely Guarded.


And the above blue comment? I am old school and do not believe that game (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's. NBA/WNBA, or FIBA) does not need a shot clock. My personal believe is not meant to elicit comments, pro or con, because my reasons are not important.

MTD, Sr.

ilyazhito Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:23pm

I agree that the closely guarded count should only apply to 3 feet and holding the ball, because a player who is within 3 feet of another is in arm's length (the length between both arms for most people is around 6 feet, more for people who are taller), and can impede the other player from advancing and scoring (and the player being guarded has no freedom of movement, being constrained by the rule not allowing him to move his pivot foot). The closely guarded count typically ends when the player being guarded gives up possession, or advances past the player guarding him. A player who is dribbling is able to elude his opponent, either by retreating or advancing by him, and thus should not be subject to the closely guarded count. This is apparently the reasoning that FIBA uses to establish its closely guarded count (the distance is 1 meter (slightly more than 3 feet)), and it would make sense if other codes followed it.

How does 6 feet make sense as a closely-guarded distance? From 2 arm lengths away, a player cannot influence another player's position or restrict his movement in the way that a player 1 arm length (3 ft) (or less) away can. To be consistent, NFHS and NCAA (M) should change their closely-guarded definition to FIBA's (NCAAW had adopted the FIBA definition, and will probably re-adopt it if the other levels adopt FIBA's standard).

BillyMac Thu Apr 05, 2018 05:52am

Tape Measure In Our Pocket ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020422)
What are Connecticut officials waiting for, that makes them start closely guarded counts late?

It appears that nobody in Connecticut can figure out what six feet looks like. We've even been instructed to use the radius of the jump ball circle, and the free throw semicircle, as well as the width of two adjacent marked lane spaces, as reference points.

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), one of Connecticut's most famous residents, would have called six feet "Mark One".

BillyMac Thu Apr 05, 2018 06:36am

Pull Out All The Stops ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020430)
It appears that nobody in Connecticut can figure out what six feet looks like. We've even been instructed to use the radius of the jump ball circle, and the free throw semicircle, as well as the width of two adjacent marked lane spaces, as reference points.

Several years ago Connecticut experimented with a "not closely guarded" signal. The IAABO International interpreter put a stop to that, stating that not counting was the proper "signal".

This past year, in an effort to get us to give this possible violation more thought, IAABO International put the "not closely guarded" signal in the IAABO mechanics manual as an official signal.

LRZ Thu Apr 05, 2018 08:01am

"I want to start with the above comments in green. I was not being rhetorical."

My apologies, Mark, for misconstruing your intent. (A sincere apology, not sarcastic---just to be clear!)

Raymond Thu Apr 05, 2018 08:05am

All this hypothetical stuff. As a new official, I was worried about the rules and mechanics that were in place and getting them right.

bob jenkins Thu Apr 05, 2018 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020433)
All this hypothetical stuff. As a new official, I was worried about the rules and mechanics that were in place and getting them right.

Sure but after three years, including one at the Frosh level of HS (HS!), you had all the answers.

Rich Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020434)
Sure but after three years, including one at the Frosh level of HS (HS!), you had all the answers.

This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.

His level of questioning for that level of experience is a bit baffling. Some officials are NEVER good enough to work even a HS varsity schedule. This guy's already working college in his mind.

IncorrectCall Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1020435)
This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.

His level of questioning for that level of experience is a bit baffling. Some officials are NEVER good enough to work even a HS varsity schedule. This guy's already working college in his mind.

It's not baffling. Officials that come from college intramural programs, especially established programs with good leadership, are initially taught at a higher level than Joe Shmoe who wanted to pick up being a referee and started with bitty ball or AAU summers.

It's just a different way of thinking.

IncorrectCall Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1020425)
I agree that the closely guarded count should only apply to 3 feet and holding the ball, because a player who is within 3 feet of another is in arm's length (the length between both arms for most people is around 6 feet, more for people who are taller), and can impede the other player from advancing and scoring (and the player being guarded has no freedom of movement, being constrained by the rule not allowing him to move his pivot foot). The closely guarded count typically ends when the player being guarded gives up possession, or advances past the player guarding him. A player who is dribbling is able to elude his opponent, either by retreating or advancing by him, and thus should not be subject to the closely guarded count. This is apparently the reasoning that FIBA uses to establish its closely guarded count (the distance is 1 meter (slightly more than 3 feet)), and it would make sense if other codes followed it.

How does 6 feet make sense as a closely-guarded distance? From 2 arm lengths away, a player cannot influence another player's position or restrict his movement in the way that a player 1 arm length (3 ft) (or less) away can. To be consistent, NFHS and NCAA (M) should change their closely-guarded definition to FIBA's (NCAAW had adopted the FIBA definition, and will probably re-adopt it if the other levels adopt FIBA's standard).

I like your mindset, but disagree with FIBA. As a defender, it is already nearly impossible to remain in front of an opponent for 5 seconds at the current distance.

Rich Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IncorrectCall (Post 1020436)
It's not baffling. Officials that come from college intramural programs, especially established programs with good leadership, are initially taught at a higher level than Joe Shmoe who wanted to pick up being a referee and started with bitty ball or AAU summers.

It's just a different way of thinking.

At the end of the day, they have to be able to work.

I hire people from college intramural programs to work varsity games. They are some of my best officials. One thing I will say about all of them is that they are as mechanically sound as anyone and they all seem to have the right attitude about officiating.

I do wonder if they have enough experience should things go south, but I guess there's only one way to get that.

crosscountry55 Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1020435)
This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.


We exacerbated the shortage and corresponding experience gap with the push for three-person. Iíll take that trade-off every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are copious long-term benefits to this strategy as long as we keep the press on recruiting, retention, and sportsmanship.

Sorry, got off topic again...





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sdoebler Thu Apr 05, 2018 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1020442)
We exacerbated the shortage and corresponding experience gap with the push for three-person. Iíll take that trade-off every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are copious long-term benefits to this strategy as long as we keep the press on recruiting, retention, and sportsmanship.

Sorry, got off topic again...

Just to piggy back on this a bit, we may have created a larger initial need for officials with three person. However, we have kept the pool of referees larger with a reduction in injuries.

Pantherdreams Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IncorrectCall (Post 1020437)
I like your mindset, but disagree with FIBA. As a defender, it is already nearly impossible to remain in front of an opponent for 5 seconds at the current distance.

Do not understand why you think it is extremely difficult for a player:

27.1. Definition
A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an
opponent is in an active legal guarding position at a distance of no more than 1 m.
27.2. Rule
A closely guarded player must pass, shoot or dribble the ball within 5 seconds.

So why do you believe its difficult for a defender to be in LGP for 5 seconds at or within 1 meter when all the offense can do is pivot?

IncorrectCall Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 1020445)
Do not understand why you think it is extremely difficult for a player:

27.1. Definition
A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an
opponent is in an active legal guarding position at a distance of no more than 1 m.
27.2. Rule
A closely guarded player must pass, shoot or dribble the ball within 5 seconds.

So why do you believe its difficult for a defender to be in LGP for 5 seconds at or within 1 meter when all the offense can do is pivot?

Talking about NFHS rule.

ilyazhito Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:08am

That's why the NFHS rule should be changed to the FIBA standard, or at least eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble provision.


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