The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   "Hey Ref, that's five seconds!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103740-hey-ref-thats-five-seconds.html)

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 03:18pm

Walk A Mile ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020165)
It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 03:33pm

Slapping The Backboard ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020162)
Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball.

Observed one of our best high school guys, also a budding NCAA guy, almost screw up a slapping the backboard call. Simple high school slap the backboard after trying to block a shot situation. One of his partners, the trail, ignored the play, correct by high school rules. The official in question was the lead and didn't see the call. The trail asked my opinion, as an observer, at halftime, and I backed him. The lead started asking questions about possibly counting the basket based on the exact timing of the backboard slap, but I stopped him with, "I believe you're confusing this play with the college rule". I couldn't fully explain the college rule, but I knew there was a different rule. (Good thing he wasn't the trail.)

If that's the basic knowledge that you guys are talking about, then sure, I agree with you. If you expect me to know all the specific ins and outs of all the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences, i.e. know the college rules as well as I know the high school rules, then I will disagree with you.

Also, almost everything I know about NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences (with the exception of the chart in the NFHS manual, IAABO manual, and IAABO pregame card) I learned here on the Forum, not by reading Referee magazine (I don't subscribe), not by watching a lot of college ball on television (not a big fan), and not by reading college rule publications. Thanks Forum.

Private prep schools in Connecticut use a hybrid version of NFHS and NCAA rules. We get a statewide handout every year detailing the important differences. For many years the girls rules had included a three feet closely guarded rule. For the past several years, private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, just rubber stamped the handout, not paying much attention to it. After remembering some posts on the Forum about the rule, this past season I asked my IAABO state interpreter to change three feet to six feet to once again match the NCAA rules. Private prep school coaches, and athletic directors, and high school officials, including guys who also worked womens college games, didn't seem to know, or care, that the rule changed. I cared, and the handout was changed, thanks Forum.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 04:30pm

The easiest place to find the rule differences is in the back of the rulebook.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020175)
I can tell that you haven't been around for almost a half century. I know some officials, including some very good officials, that will say that the backboard didn't vibrate enough to call a technical foul. Or that a headband in a school, color is legal. I once observed a junior varsity official put up three minutes for overtime, until he was corrected by his partner. Or, go to the arrow after every double foul. All of these were once correct. We all should certainly be able to block out all the rules of the past, and just concentrate on the rules of the present, but it's easier said than done. I've always said, and maintained, that it's easy to learn the rules, it's harder to keep up with the rule changes, and the longer one officiates, the harder it gets.

I've been refereeing long enough to see my share of rule changes. And I have to keep up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level. The number one reason people get rules confused that have changed is because they don't take the time to stick with what's current.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 05:37pm

Preaching To The Choir ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020178)
I've been refereeing long enough to see my share of rule changes. And I have to keep up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level. The number one reason people get rules confused that have changed is because they don't take the time to stick with what's current.

Amen. I know guys that haven't opened up a rulebook, or casebook, in years.

Observed two veteran junior varsity officials, both whom have worked varsity games. End of fourth period, tied game, act of shooting foul called with 0:00:00 on clock, and horn sounding. They line up players on the free throw lanes. Free throw shooter makes the first free throw to win the game. Officials have her attempt the second free throw, still with players lined up on the free throw lanes. Do two wrongs make a right? Have they opened up a rulebook since the twentieth century?

Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

bucky Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020177)
The easiest place to find the rule differences is in the back of the rulebook.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

bucky Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)
To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

Imagine Steratore's world. Wow!

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)

Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.

I do not think anyone said a thing about mastering all rules sets. I think it is not hard to know that the NCAA changes rules, they have a press release. We as officials usually talk about it here. We usually post the press release and at best an official could read some of the headlines of the changes because you can almost count on the fact that you will hear about them during the season. I know when the NBA changes something or the NFL changes something, I certainly pay attention in those respective sports. But then again, when a coach starts yelling at me about a pro or college rule, I know at least that there is a minor difference. Even when I would do a girls game, you would get women's college rules thrown at you that did not apply.

Peace

crosscountry55 Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020182)
Regarding Raymond's statement about "keep(ing) up with rule changes at the NCAA level and the high school level", God bless you Raymond. To quote Rudyard Kipling, "You're a better man than I am ...", and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't believe that I could master both rules sets, certainly not NFHS and both NCAA gender rule sets.


A HS only official doesn’t have to master NCAA rules. But I have found that reading through the NCAA rules every few years (not to mention discussing them on this forum) has helped me to give firm but cordial answers to incredulous coaches whose rules knowledge comes principally from television. Saying, “in college you’d be right but the high school rule is ________” can get you a lot of street cred while avoiding unnecessary confrontations.

Helps with partners who don’t know the differences, either!

Not a requirement for a HS official by any means. But it has helped me. I don’t even read the NCAA case books. Just the rules. Because they are structured in a similar manner to NFHS rules, what’s a little different tends to jump off the page.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ilyazhito Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1020192)
I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

Good idea, but would this be feasible for DIII or JUCO officials who are just getting started in working games under NCAA rules? AFAIK, they have to buy the CCA-approved uniform (more than one, if they work men's and women's basketball), pay for access to the Central Hub ($140 per year for DII/DIII, unless I am mistaken), pay association dues (CBOA for the East Coast), and pay for longer travel than they have usually done at the high school level. I have heard that college football officials operate at a loss, break-even, or small profit for the first few years at the college level, so is the same true for college basketball officials?

I would understand not working high school basketball if I was an official who had moved up to DII/DI and had been receiving a consistent collegiate schedule for multiple years. Then, my high school games would require me to make backward adjustments in mechanics and philosophy, and would require as much conscious effort as college games would for a new JUCO/DIII official. In that case, I would give up working high school, but I am not at that stage yet, personally. I'll need a few years of varsity ball under my belt before I apply to CBOA.

About rules differences, what differences do the charts in the NCAA men's and women's books omit, in your experience?

About the OP, I believe that there are not many closely-guarded counts because the officials are unwilling to apply the count when the ball quickly changes hands from one player to another. Maybe C and T are unwilling to make calls in the gray area between them, and wait until the ball clearly belongs to one official's zone, or the other's. Perhaps many counts end almost as soon as they start, because the player starts dribbling after possessing the ball in a closely guarded situation, or passes off quickly after ending the dribble. In these cases, officials might not have a chance to start the 5 second count. Maybe this becomes a point of emphasis for J.D. Collins and June Courteau next year.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1020192)
I always found that chart to be quite silly in that so many differences are omitted. Many (of those that officiate both) think that those listed differences are the only differences and then make mistakes. If I was a college assigner, I would strongly recommend that my officials only officiate college and forget the High School world.

I don't know what most do and I don't know what omissions are in the chart. But if someone only does HS and wants to know what may be different concerning a particular rule, the chart is a pretty reliable place to start.

I learned each rule set and ALWAYS apply them appropriately. I have never misapplied a HS rule in a college game or college rule in s HS game.

As far as only working college, that's a ridiculous premise unless one is working at least 15-20 D1 games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, guys/gals who are "rulebook" officials master the rules at whatever level they are working. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:47pm

Praise ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020194)
I do not think anyone said a thing about mastering all rules sets.

I did. I was referring to (and praising) Raymond (as well as many other Forum members), who as both a high school official, and a college official, has obviously mastered both rule sets, or he wouldn't be working many games on either level.

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:57pm

IAABO Pregame Card ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1020200)
I don't know what most do and I don't know what omissions are in the chart. But if someone only does HS and wants to know what may be different concerning a particular rule, the chart is a pretty reliable place to start.

IAABO members get a pregame card every year, and it has the NFHS/NCAAM/NCAAW rule differences on it.

It's the only part of the card I pay any attention to.

If I used the card to run my pregame, it would take a considerable amount of time (it's a very long list) and my partner would throw me under the team bus on our way out the door after out game.

Here's the image from the 2017-18 High School Basketball Rules Simplified & Illustrated, note the proper NFHS technique required of the thrower. I believe that IAABO requires the same technique.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Apr 02, 2018 06:55am

As a long time women's college official (34 years) and USA Basketball Official (12 years) I have always thought the NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule requirement of the Defender being within three feet of the Offensive Player in PC of the Ball and only while the Offensive Player is holding the Ball was the better Rule.

The NCAA Women's Closely Guarded Rule was a NAGWS Rule which was taken from the FIBA Rules.

MTD, Sr.

JRutledge Mon Apr 02, 2018 08:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020207)
I did. I was referring to (and praising) Raymond (as well as many other Forum members), who as both a high school official, and a college official, has obviously mastered both rule sets, or he wouldn't be working many games on either level.

Again, you make a simple conversation into a bigger deal.

Peace


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:43pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1