Why Aren't You On TV?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I can live with that. I was sitting in on a post-game "post mortem" once where another guy offered this criticism: "You signaled push, but it was a hold."

To me, that's an absurd focus on something relatively trivial, in the big scheme of things.

I would say that's important. You need to accurately describe the infraction.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

In some places officials who use those signals can't overcome the powers-that-be who only want "approved" signals.

Yes, from the little I know about college signals, they can be better than high school signals in describing what really happened.

And if the only thing going on was to get the game officiated properly (as if the game were officiated in a bubble), it wouldn't really matter what mechanics and signals one used, as long as the officials are in good position to make the calls, that the calls are correct, and the calls are communicated correctly to players, partner, coaches, table, and fans.

The reason why my local IAABO board wants only high school mechanics and signals is that IAABO is primarily a basketball officiating educational organization. The education of new official doesn't end when they pass the rules and mechanics tests.

For learning purposes, we require subvarsity officials to stay and observe the varsity officials in the varsity game. The better, and quicker, they learn the proper mechanics and signals, the quicker they will move up in the ranks (of course, mechanics and signals aren't the end all, they also have to demonstrate other things, rules knowledge, game management, advantage/disadvantage, hustle, etc.). They are rated by observers, and one portion of the rating is on their mechanics ("Utilizes proper mechanics, up-to-date techniques and procedures as detailed in the IAABO Officials Manual." ). New officials observing a varsity game can become confused if an official, especially a highly rated official, uses college mechanics and signals (or even worse, college rules) in a high school game.

Learning is easier, and probably better, if these young'uns see consistent mechanics and signals, from one high school game to the next high school game, and from one high school official to the next high school official. It also helps a lot if what these young'uns see is the same as what's in the written IAABO mechanics manual (which is what they studied), as well as the same as what they've been taught in the mechanics classes. Consistency is the key, deviations from one accepted way (even if not the best way) to do things can be misleading, and confusing, to learners.

I know a lot about learning, I've got thirty-plus years of award winning middle school teaching under my belt.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The best officials I work with are guys that have college experience. Why? Because they will not be shy to call hand-checking and other freedom of movement fouls, be aware of the clock and often use common sense when applying rules. Not to say that there are high school only officials that are not very good, but many of them have only a perspective that is limited if they never attended a college camp or got outside of their comfort zone.

And what is so funny, all my career I see high school officials use signals that are not in the book. Heck, I can hardly find a single high school official that signals a team control foul properly, but we get upset if an official uses a signal that actually describes the foul that took place every now an then. We are funny sometimes.

Peace

What would be an example of a signal that is "not in the book" at the high school level? I typically give "by the book" signals, and then say what exactly happened (e.g. arm bar) and an additional signal, if needed to clarify. AFAIK, it isn't too difficult to give a team control foul signal (fist up to stop the clock, then punch in the direction where the fouling team came from).

About camps, what type are typically available in your area? Are they more tryout or teaching camps? I'm looking to go to a three-man teaching camp in Annapolis this June, and possibly to the Level One Basketball Officials Camp in August in DC (Que'z Crawford runs that camp). I might go to college-specific tryout camps in the future, when I have varsity games under my belt.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

What would be an example of a signal that is "not in the book" at the high school level? I typically give "by the book" signals, and then say what exactly happened (e.g. arm bar) and an additional signal, if needed to clarify. AFAIK, it isn't too difficult to give a team control foul signal (fist up to stop the clock, then punch in the direction where the fouling team came from).

About camps, what type are typically available in your area? Are they more tryout or teaching camps? I'm looking to go to a three-man teaching camp in Annapolis this June, and possibly to the Level One Basketball Officials Camp in August in DC (Que'z Crawford runs that camp). I might go to college-specific tryout camps in the future, when I have varsity games under my belt.

If you are searching for the best teaching camp in the area, I suggest Sean Hull's camp...he has one at U of M abd one at Towson. PM ME and I will get you his xontact info. Quez's in August is also a good choice.

[bucky]

Although I will go along, I never understood the use of many signals. I have discussed this. Some signals are clearly necessary, offensive foul but others seem like a waste of time, specifically those surrounding defensive fouls. The fist in the air indicates illegal contact, period. Why is it necessary to signal a hold? Push? Handcheck? Etc? Some yes, but not a majority. Maybe just an irritation point for me. Speaking of signals, when was the last time you saw an official give the correct signal for illegal use of hands? I can't recall one. Oh, and as far as NCAA refs, what is the deal with the bent-elbows-fists-near-center-of-chest-and-then-extend-fist-out signal? I have seen it in the NBA and in college and it seems silly to me. Don't believe that is an approved signal. Correct me if wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

What would be an example of a signal that is "not in the book" at the high school level? I typically give "by the book" signals, and then say what exactly happened (e.g. arm bar) and an additional signal, if needed to clarify. AFAIK, it isn't too difficult to give a team control foul signal (fist up to stop the clock, then punch in the direction where the fouling team came from).

Easy. There are signals like arm-bar (which you referenced), hooking, not vertical signal, walling up, two-hands or hit on the arm.

Also, a lot of people do not give the team control foul in the proper sequence or do not give the preliminary at all when they make such a call.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

About camps, what type are typically available in your area? Are they more tryout or teaching camps? I'm looking to go to a three-man teaching camp in Annapolis this June, and possibly to the Level One Basketball Officials Camp in August in DC (Que'z Crawford runs that camp). I might go to college-specific tryout camps in the future, when I have varsity games under my belt.

All camps are try-outs for someone. All camps teach things too. There is no one versus the other that I can tell. The level might affect how much those things apply, but you can learn and try out all at the same time.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Learning is easier, and probably better, if these young'uns see consistent mechanics and signals, from one high school game to the next high school game, and from one high school official to the next high school official. It also helps a lot if what these young'uns see is the same as what's in the written IAABO mechanics manual (which is what they studied), as well as the same as what they've been taught in the mechanics classes. Consistency is the key, deviations from one accepted way (even if not the best way) to do things can be misleading, and confusing, to learners.

People are not stupid. If they can show the actual foul that is better than showing them a "push" when they used their knee in the back. All these signals can be disputed. I use them mostly when I am officiating high school games, but I use my voice. But the problem is not everyone hears you speak (especially in loud gyms). And if it is so confusing, then why do college officials have little issues giving more signals? That is just lame excuse to stay in the stone ages. Things change and so does officiating. I have even heard IAABO complain that football uses the same signals. But football the signal has a specific penalty and the signal can be the difference between a 10-yard penalty and a 15-yard penalty enforced at the succedding spot. There are no such signal requirements other than a team control or player control foul that does not shoot FTs. And we never give the signal for what they did in a PC foul.

Peace

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by Raymond

In HS games, I signal whatever I need to communicate what happened. I will use a 'hit to the head" signal and "arm bar" signal when doing HS games. I definitely have a rep for handling business, especially with players.

I have found that folks who don't know HS rules aren't much better with college rules. You're either a rules guy, or you are not. One thing I never do is discuss college rules when doing HS pre-games; just causing confusion IMO. I don't like when partners bring up something from college games that have nothing do with HS games.

I think this is correct but for me personally I try to use the approved signals first reporting and then use "unapproved signals" if I feel like that may help in any sense. The two cases that come to mind are as mentioned hit to the head and tripping. There is no mechanic to my knowledge to indicate the player was tripped so I generally signal block at the table and then say he was tripped and may signal or point to foot. It doesn't make sense that you are reporting the same foul when a player sticks his leg out and trips an opponent as when a defender slides into the offense or gives a hip bump. Probably not perfectly correct by the book but at least I can say that I reported the foul using approved signals, I just also used unapproved signals.

In terms of what foul is reported at the table it is most important to get the call right, but I think you lose credibility if you report something that clearly didn't happen. If you have a close block/charge then go report a hold or hit I think that the coach doesn't have as much faith in your call despite how correct it may be.

I would say when I started I did not consider myself a "rules guy" but this forum has helped tremendously. I would rate myself above the median referee in terms of rules knowledge now, and probably well below the median for referees on this forum.

[IncorrectCall]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Yes you can but I think the point is you get hired to work JUCO and the guy gives you two games does that make you a college official ? I officiate in a few D1 leagues but the reality is that I'm a D2 guy....

Fred Barakat back in the mid - late 80's would give a guy an ACC contract and give a guy 1 non conference game against a D2 team.

There is an official who worked the dance this year, who once asked whether you were on the staff or the roster ??? What he meant was if you work three games your just a U2 on the roster, if you are working every wed / sat then you are on the staff. I strive to be on staffs.....

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111. Great post.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Who exactly is doing that though?

There are many guys on this site that act like they would know better than those in the more high profile situations. And that is not reserved for just D1 or the NCAA Tournament. They might not say the exact words, but they always act like they can point out ever mistake of others but never seem to admit the kinds of things they might not do very well.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

If you are searching for the best teaching camp in the area, I suggest Sean Hull's camp...he has one at U of M abd one at Towson. PM ME and I will get you his xontact info. Quez's in August is also a good choice.

Go ahead and make your own decision, but I would respectfully disagree with Multiple Sports about Sean Hull's camp (at least the Towson one). I went in 2014 and I left with a mostly bad impression. One of the guest speakers was cool (NFL white hat), but it was a lot of games (racket) and some of the clinicians were downright rude. One of them even downgraded me for not going to the arrow on a clearly POI situation. The clinician and one of my partners clearly didn't know the rule, and I ended up looking bad for it. It took every ounce of my soul not to be a "yeah but'er" at that moment. Right then and there I knew I'd never go back to that camp.

I wasn't a Baltimore area official at the time; I went to the camp looking for some JUCO visibility that I could perhaps parlay into some work closer to my area in Tidewater, VA. Didn't find it. There was a Pennsylvania JUCO guy there as a clinician, but other than that it seemed like the camp was mainly geared at Baltimore area HS officials who needed to pay their dues for schedule purposes. So if that's you, so be it. But you are forewarned.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Go ahead and make your own decision, but I would respectfully disagree with Multiple Sports about Sean Hull's camp (at least the Towson one). I went in 2014 and I left with a mostly bad impression. One of the guest speakers was cool (NFL white hat), but it was a lot of games (racket) and some of the clinicians were downright rude. One of them even downgraded me for not going to the arrow on a clearly POI situation. The clinician and one of my partners clearly didn't know the rule, and I ended up looking bad for it. It took every ounce of my soul not to be a "yeah but'er" at that moment. Right then and there I knew I'd never go back to that camp.

I wasn't a Baltimore area official at the time; I went to the camp looking for some JUCO visibility that I could perhaps parlay into some work closer to my area in Tidewater, VA. Didn't find it. There was a Pennsylvania JUCO guy there as a clinician, but other than that it seemed like the camp was mainly geared at Baltimore area HS officials who needed to pay their dues for schedule purposes. So if that's you, so be it. But you are forewarned.

I went to Sean's camp years ago at Mount St. Mary's. I had a better experience than you had and I've even ended working games since then with guys who were observers. But, yes, those B-more/DC guys can tend to be cliquish.

And as I've mentioned plenty of times here and on FB, there are a lot of college guys (way too many) who simply don't know the rules that well. And it is worse with older guys, especially observers, b/c they are not going to listen to someone whom they don't know.

If you want a GREAT teaching camp, go to a camp that is run by NBA guys. Joey Crawford and Mike Callahan run Next Level camp every year at Villanova the week after Father's Day. It is short, but fruitful, and not as expensive as most camps.