Why Aren't You On TV?

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

I am amazed that this system still exists, to be honest. The double dipping just seems wrong. The coordinator is being paid by the conference to evaluate and hire officials, after all.


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Oh I’m with you. It’s wrong, but as long as assigners and officials are independent contractors (and officials are willing to pay up for a chance to be seen), I don’t see how it will change.

[EarnYourStripes]

I think we can all agree that nobody is a fan of the current camp system but it is what it is. There is big money available to folks who are able to make it to the division 1 level. When that's the case you have to be willing to do what is necessary to get a job. Invest in yourself. Just like people make a decision to invest in themselves in their normal career. People go to college to earn a degree for the opportunity at a potentially higher paying job. People invest in certifications and classes to move up in their chosen career. Does it suck to have to shell out money for camps year after year? Yes but guess what, I'm going to make that back and more when games get assigned. It's not all politics in this business. Name one part of life that doesn't involve politics. That's just how it goes. If you are in shape, can referee and are a pretty decent human being odds are that you are gonna be given a shot. What you do with it from there is on you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Oh I’m with you. It’s wrong, but as long as assigners and officials are independent contractors (and officials are willing to pay up for a chance to be seen), I don’t see how it will change.

Make the assigners conference employees. Problem solved?

I have seen HS assigners (with college ties) try to do this with HS games. I couldn't imagine trying to pull this for a game with a $65-$70 payday.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For that matter, I know some that work small college that just are not very good, yet, they're there. Why?

Same here, not a lot, but more than one, or two. These are things that make me scratch my head and say, "Hmmm".

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games never let on that they're college guys, but the not very good college guys working high school games can't wait to tell you all about their college assignments?

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games have no problems switching to high school mechanics and signals, but the not very good college guys working high school games refuse to use anything but college mechanics and signals?

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same here, not a lot, but more than one, or two. These are things that make me scratch my head and say, "Hmmm".

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games never let on that they're college guys, but the not very good college guys working high school games can't wait to tell you all about their college assignments?

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games have no problems switching to high school mechanics and signals, but the not very good college guys working high school games refuse to use anything but college mechanics and signals?

Absolutely 100% correct!!!!! I see it all the time!

[bucky]

Originally Posted by EarnYourStripes

I think we can all agree that nobody is a fan of the current camp system but it is what it is. There is big money available to folks who are able to make it to the division 1 level. When that's the case you have to be willing to do what is necessary to get a job. Invest in yourself. Just like people make a decision to invest in themselves in their normal career. People go to college to earn a degree for the opportunity at a potentially higher paying job. People invest in certifications and classes to move up in their chosen career. Does it suck to have to shell out money for camps year after year? Yes but guess what, I'm going to make that back and more when games get assigned. It's not all politics in this business. Name one part of life that doesn't involve politics. That's just how it goes. If you are in shape, can referee and are a pretty decent human being odds are that you are gonna be given a shot. What you do with it from there is on you.

For the most part, I understand your point. However, college degrees, certs, classes, etc. contain new material. Go to college for 1 year and they teach you new things. Go to college the fourth year and they teach you new things. They do not teach you the same things in your fourth year that they taught you in your first year. Camps essentially do not do it this way. Go to camp your first year and they teach you new things. Go to camp any time after that and, assuming you learned nothing the first year, they teach you the same things. If you learned everything the first time then they teach you nothing new from that point forward. At camps you are simply refining and once mastered, you do not learn anything new. Camps are more about "networking".

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same here, not a lot, but more than one, or two. These are things that make me scratch my head and say, "Hmmm".

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games never let on that they're college guys, but the not very good college guys working high school games can't wait to tell you all about their college assignments?

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games have no problems switching to high school mechanics and signals, but the not very good college guys working high school games refuse to use anything but college mechanics and signals?

Are you a high school official that does college games? or a College Official that does HS games?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bucky

For the most part, I understand your point. However, college degrees, certs, classes, etc. contain new material. Go to college for 1 year and they teach you new things. Go to college the fourth year and they teach you new things. They do not teach you the same things in your fourth year that they taught you in your first year. Camps essentially do not do it this way. Go to camp your first year and they teach you new things. Go to camp any time after that and, assuming you learned nothing the first year, they teach you the same things. If you learned everything the first time then they teach you nothing new from that point forward. At camps you are simply refining and once mastered, you do not learn anything new. Camps are more about "networking".

Then you're choosing some poor camps. I went to the same camp for a bunch of years as a camper and spent the last couple as a clinician. I learned things that made me better EVERY year. The biggest nugget I learned was as a clinician.

Philosophies change, mechanics and how to take plays change subtlly all the time. If you're not learning anything, it's not a good camp or the clinicians are poor.


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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Are you a high school official that does college games? or a College Official that does HS games?

Can you not be both?

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Can you not be both?

Yes you can but I think the point is you get hired to work JUCO and the guy gives you two games does that make you a college official ? I officiate in a few D1 leagues but the reality is that I'm a D2 guy....

Fred Barakat back in the mid - late 80's would give a guy an ACC contract and give a guy 1 non conference game against a D2 team.

There is an official who worked the dance this year, who once asked whether you were on the staff or the roster ??? What he meant was if you work three games your just a U2 on the roster, if you are working every wed / sat then you are on the staff. I strive to be on staffs.....

[mtn335]

Originally Posted by Rich

Philosophies change, mechanics and how to take plays change subtlly all the time. If you're not learning anything, it's not a good camp or the clinicians are poor.

This is the most important reason to go to camp - it's to stay current. The pace of change may not be fast, but if you let it go for more than a year or two, you're going to be behind and a little out of touch (and maybe more than a little the longer you don't go). Camp's where we start to set the tone for the year to come; it's where we get some common understanding of things that we then all go use in our pregame in the next year, etc. So in pregame, we're not explaining new topics, we're referring back to prior learning.

Last year, my third child was due the week of the camp run by the supervisor in my highest league, and ended up being born (2 weeks late) the weekend of the other major camp in our area. So I didn't go to camp in 2017, and let me tell you: I felt the difference. Just 1 summer of not talking the talk and running the floor with everybody for 1 or 2 weekends, and I could tell I was behind. It worked out fine, but you have to stay current.

I'm likely never going to climb higher than I am today, because the places where I'd get seen by next-level supervisors are places I'm not willing to spend my time, money, or spousal indulgence to go. I'm in no way bothered by that; if I went for it, maybe it'd work out, maybe not, but my choices mean my life isn't cut out for that chase! And that's fine!

But I WILL keep going to camp as long as I'm trying to referee, because the feeling this fall of not having that edge, of not being on top of everything, SUCKED.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Are you a high school official that does college games? or a College Official that does HS games?

Great question. Makes one think.

[BillyMac]

I was a middle school basketball coach for over 25 years. Being a low paid teacher, I coached at players camps in the summer, some run by colleges, some run by high school coaches, some day camps, some overnight camps.

Do the players improve their skills? Not really, you can't do that in a week. Most players are there to impress their high school coach, who encourage their players to attend the camps that they coach at (I know, I was the parent of such a player), a real conflict of interest. College head coaches use these camps to make available extra pay to their assistants, as well as to their college players (apparently legal at the time).

Do the coaches at said camps really care about improving player's skills? No. Coaches can’t wait for the week to end, get paid, and get back to enjoying their summer.

Working at such camps always left a bad taste in my mouth. I finally stopped working at them, and made my summer money tending bar at a local golf course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games have no problems switching to high school mechanics and signals, but the not very good college guys working high school games refuse to use anything but college mechanics and signals?

I use pretty much the same exact mechanics and signals that I use working college games as I do when I work high school games. There are not even that many differences other than what you describe as a foul.

The problem is that people that watch college often have no idea what the books say either way.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I use pretty much the same exact mechanics and signals that I use working college games as I do when I work high school games. There are not even that many differences other than what you describe as a foul.

The problem is that people that watch college often have no idea what the books say either way.

Peace

Yeah, there really aren't that many differences between men's college and high school in terms of mechanics or signaling. The biggest difference is going opposite versus tableside, and I've never worked with a college guy that tried to pull that stunt.

Foul reporting? In high school most states want you to hustle and come to a stop, which is exactly what the CCA manual requires. Now that high school uses two hands, that's one less difference there, too.

If I work with a college guy that wants to use the "walled up" signal or some other non-NFHS auxiliary signal, or does some minor variation from what's explicitly spelled out in the NFHS Manual, that really doesn't bother me. Not sure why some officials get so worked up about it that they ignore the fact that some of the college officials working high school are great partners.