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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 12:45am
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Florida / Texas Tech Denied Substitution

With just under a minute to go in the game, Florida takes a shot. The shot is an airball and goes OOB on the endline. They decided to check the clock to see how much time was left when the ball went OOB.

Once they have that all figured out, they denied a player entry into the game, then they allowed him in, then they sent him back out????

The ball was dead because of an OOB violation, not because they stopped the game to check something. Why was the player not permitted to enter?
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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 12:57am
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I remember thinking the same thing. Coach was not happy and appeared dissatisfied with explanation. I thought maybe I missed that the player had just subbed out and no time ran yet. IDK though.
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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
With just under a minute to go in the game, Florida takes a shot. The shot is an airball and goes OOB on the endline. They decided to check the clock to see how much time was left when the ball went OOB.

Once they have that all figured out, they denied a player entry into the game, then they allowed him in, then they sent him back out????

The ball was dead because of an OOB violation, not because they stopped the game to check something. Why was the player not permitted to enter?
Rewound my DVR to see if the player had been in the game previously and he had not. I think the crew got it wrong. Yes, they were reviewing a timing mistake, but the ball was already dead when they went to review. If they had stopped play to review a timing mistake then the sub would not have been allowed.

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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 10:36am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Rewound my DVR to see if the player had been in the game previously and he had not. I think the crew got it wrong. Yes, they were reviewing a timing mistake, but the ball was already dead when they went to review. If they had stopped play to review a timing mistake then the sub would not have been allowed.

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A pretty big mistake for that point of the game...not allowing a team to have the personnel on the court that they wanted. They had someone in for offense and wanted to put someone in for defense and were denied. I'd be pissed if that were the case...and the coach was.
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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 11:22am
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This is similar to the discussion we had a couple weeks ago about a sub that came in to play defense but then the direction was changed and the coach was not allowed to take the sub back. Some here agreed with that ruling, some did not.
At that point of the game, depending upon which is getting the ball will often determine whether the coach wants the sub.
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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 11:39am
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100% Sure ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... not allowing a team to have the personnel on the court that they wanted.
In my high school games, if I'm not 100% sure that the substitution is illegal, then the substitute is coming in.

My biggest problem regarding substitutions is often my partner, who may not subscribe to my statement above (or who doesn't know the rules).

A few problems this past year involved the timekeeper incorrectly sounding the substitution horn a split second after the ball had already been put at the disposal of the inbounder, or had already been inbounded. In these cases, I will hold my whistle to see if the substitute will hold back so that the play can continue. I've had partners who sound their whistle right away, stopping the play, and resetting the inbound play. I don't have a problem with that (it may prevent the ball handler from "double dribbling"), I do have a problem when they followup by denying the substitution. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped, one can't deny a substitution (assuming the substitute is otherwise eligible, sit a tick, not disqualified, proper uniform and equipment, no blood, etc.) in that situation.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 18, 2018 at 12:52pm.
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Old Sun Mar 18, 2018, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Rewound my DVR to see if the player had been in the game previously and he had not. I think the crew got it wrong. Yes, they were reviewing a timing mistake, but the ball was already dead when they went to review. If they had stopped play to review a timing mistake then the sub would not have been allowed.

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The ball was dead and the clock was stopped.

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Old Sat Mar 24, 2018, 01:23pm
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If you cannot see this, let me know (Video)



For the record, this video was tagged by the NCAA site.

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Old Sun Mar 25, 2018, 05:40pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post


For the record, this video was tagged by the NCAA site.

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It appears like your videos are getting tagged because the the length. If you want to show a longer sequence, perhaps making two videos would get the length small enough to be accepted.
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:32pm
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We had a state championship game at the end. A girl subbed out before FTs and came back in before a tick. She hit the winning shot. Pretty big screw up. How often do coaches try this and how often are we paying attention to who just left and who wants to come back in....

This is as hard as the loose ball offensive foul on an inbound late in the game and we think we need to shoot FTs. That is missed a lot too...
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:54pm
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
We had a state championship game at the end. A girl subbed out before FTs and came back in before a tick. She hit the winning shot. Pretty big screw up. How often do coaches try this and how often are we paying attention to who just left and who wants to come back in....
This is something that isn't so easy to track and there isn't a procedure for doing so. Most scorers don't record who came out at what time.

It is up to the officials to just remember and with everything else that can occur in the interim, it is a lot to remember potentially 3-6 players' numbers for who might try to come back in a few minutes after some timeouts, FTs, maybe another foul or two, etc.
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
We had a state championship game at the end. A girl subbed out before FTs and came back in before a tick. She hit the winning shot. Pretty big screw up. How often do coaches try this and how often are we paying attention to who just left and who wants to come back in....
Yeah a play like that is one of my biggest fears. It is very easy to miss. It definitely seems to be more common at higher levels and/or with more astute coaches who like to play individual defensive and offensive matchups for certain possessions.

A good official scorer is worth their weight in gold here, but seeing that we can't count on them to know the rule, I think the moral of the story is to pay close attention to who leaves the game during FT substitutions in late game situations when the score is close. Whether or not a final free throw is good or not has an impact on the score differential, which good coaches use to determine who they want on the floor. Sometimes it's the team member they just took out. We need to be on the watch for this. I don't think coaches usually try to pull a fast one on us; they're just coaching and don't think about it. That said, I'm sure there are some that do know the rule and simply try to get away with an illegal substitution if they can.

This usually seems to be an issue during free throws. But it could also be a problem if a violation or foul occurs before a throw-in ends.
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:01pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
...

This usually seems to be an issue during free throws. But it could also be a problem if a violation or foul occurs before a throw-in ends.
I have 2 college scorekeepers who are very diligent about that. One them actually caught the attempted illegal substitution for us when we had a foul during a free throw.

When I worked the my state final this season the scorekeeper had us pull 2 players off the court who attempted to start the 2nd quarter but never checked in between quarters.
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