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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Alright I had to read that a few times to visualize especially after ART. 5 started with A player holding the ball:
You know my reference was a case play (dots, not dashes), right?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
You know my reference was a case play (dots, not dashes), right?
Ah, I don't have my case play book at work.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:44am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?
RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:45am
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Technically speaking 4-44-3b can also lead to an exception to the concept that player must be holding the ball in order to travel.

b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Scenario: Player jumps to shoot, realizing his shot will be blocked simply drops the ball. He then lands.

His feet have returned to the floor before the ball has been released on a pass or try for goal. This attempt to circumvent the rules is a travel.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas4yf View Post
Technically speaking 4-44-3b can also lead to an exception to the concept that player must be holding the ball in order to travel.

b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Scenario: Player jumps to shoot, realizing his shot will be blocked simply drops the ball. He then lands.

His feet have returned to the floor before the ball has been released on a pass or try for goal. This attempt to circumvent the rules is a travel.
Not really.

The foot movement that makes it a travel occurred when the player was holding the ball.....the jump. The player lifted the pivot foot while holding the ball and then started a dribble.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Not really.

The foot movement that makes it a travel occurred when the player was holding the ball.....the jump. The player lifted the pivot foot while holding the ball and then started a dribble.
I mean sure, but by that logic 4-44-5b (the exception noted earlier) is only a travel because the player had been holding the ball first.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas4yf View Post
I mean sure, but by that logic 4-44-5b (the exception noted earlier) is only a travel because the player had been holding the ball first.
The difference is that every other case involves some foot movement while holding the ball. The stand-up case doesn't.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
From my phone it looks like he simply fumbled the ball and recovered it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Same
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The difference is that every other case involves some foot movement while holding the ball. The stand-up case doesn't.
OK I can buy that ... you've convinced me!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas4yf View Post
Technically speaking 4-44-3b can also lead to an exception to the concept that player must be holding the ball in order to travel.

b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Scenario: Player jumps to shoot, realizing his shot will be blocked simply drops the ball. He then lands.

His feet have returned to the floor before the ball has been released on a pass or try for goal. This attempt to circumvent the rules is a travel.
Provided the player is the first to touch the ball after the ball bounces.
4.44.3 Situation A (d)
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Provided the player is the first to touch the ball after the ball bounces.
4.44.3 Situation A (d)
I don't have my case book in front of me but a quick google returned this. Is this the case play you're referring to?

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces . RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

If so, in all of these the situation is a defender contacting the ball. The situation I described was a player dropping the ball on his own.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Provided the player is the first to touch the ball after the ball bounces.
4.44.3 Situation A (d)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas4yf View Post
I don't have my case book in front of me but a quick google returned this. Is this the case play you're referring to?

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces . RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

If so, in all of these the situation is a defender contacting the ball. The situation I described was a player dropping the ball on his own.
The case setup having a player touch the ball after it bounces does not make it a requirement for the ruling. It is an example. It does not say that it isn't a travel if the player doesn't touch it.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:07pm
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Fishing Expedition ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?
RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)
Shouldn't you have let sdoebler find it himself?

Give a man a fish and he has food for a day. Teach a man to fish and he has to buy bamboo rods, graphite reels, monofilament lines, neoprene waders, creels, tackleboxes, lures, flies, spinners, worm rigs, slip sinkers, offset hooks, gore-tex hats, 20 pocket vests, fish finders, depth sounders, radar, boats, trailers, global positioning systems, coolers, and six-packs.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas4yf View Post
I don't have my case book in front of me but a quick google returned this. Is this the case play you're referring to?

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces . RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

If so, in all of these the situation is a defender contacting the ball. The situation I described was a player dropping the ball on his own.
The defender touching the ball doesn’t change the situation. The player maintained control of the ball and dropped it to the floor. The ruling says violation if the player touches it first. Interestingly, the ruling doesn’t suggest dropping the ball to the floor is illegal because at that point we really don’t know what it is. The ruling suggests it could be a “pass” or “try” in b, c and d and the ball remains live, meaning if the ball touches or is touched by any other player it simply becomes a legal pass. That is the interpretation I adhere to. Others may have different interpretations they go by.

Last edited by billyu2; Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 09:19pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
The defender touching the ball doesn’t change the situation. The player maintained control of the ball and dropped it to the floor. The ruling says violation if the player touches it first. Interestingly, the ruling doesn’t suggest dropping the ball to the floor is illegal because at that point we really don’t know what it is. The ruling suggests it could be a “pass” or “try” in b, c and d and the ball remains live, meaning if the ball touches or is touched by any other player it simply becomes a legal pass. That is the interpretation I adhere to. Others may have different interpretations they go by.
This is certainly a good point and I'm curious to see how others interpret it. Clearly it's hard to legislate intent, but when this occurs it's usually very evident it's not a pass attempt.

Rulebook defines a pass as: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another
player.

If a player jumps for a shot, second guesses it for whatever reason and drops the ball I don't see any way one could deem that a 'throw, bat or roll' to another player. Perhaps if it occurs with a teammate so near the shooter that he is able to immediately pick up the loose ball I'd consider not blowing it, but I've never seen that occur. Granted, I've only seen the drop ball scenario happen once in 7 years too.
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