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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:22am
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Incomplete Rule?

Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?
I agree it's missing. Treat it as if it were one of the examples (or, perhaps, as if no examples were needed) in that Penalty section.
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Old Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I agree it's missing. Treat it as if it were one of the examples (or, perhaps, as if no examples were needed) in that Penalty section.

This play has provided Mark, Jr., and I with hours and hours of conversation as we have traveled to games together.

I am in the vet's office (my family thought they were going to have to put me down, LOL!) with our dog.

I do not have access to my Rules Books but over the years the three Rules Committee has rewritten the rule from a simple rule to apply: If B1 violates first followed by a violation by A2, we had Jump Ball (AP Arrow today); very simple and elegant. Now we have multiple scenarios in which one needs to be at least a Structural Engineer (like me) or a Mechanical Engineering student (like Junior) to decipher the rule.

I base my Ruling of going to the AP Arrow based upon the history of the Rule, making the AP Arrow the only logical choice.

MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 09:46pm. Reason: Corrected a typo.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:58am
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AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released, or could see it happening without a fake from the free thrower.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released, or could see it happening without a fake from the free thrower.



You have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) had a Player located outside of the Three-Point Arc try to time his entry into the area inside the Three-Point Arc to happen just after Shooter releases his/her FTA?

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.
Yes. And "ignore the second violation is ONLY if both are in a marked lane space.

So, the OP is not covered. Use 2-3. I recommend using the arrow. I also agree it's not likely to happen.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released...
Clearly you work higher-level games than I!
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
You have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) had a Player located outside of the Three-Point Arc try to time his entry into the area inside the Three-Point Arc to happen just after Shooter releases his/her FTA?

MTD, Sr.
Not since they restricted them to entering after the ball hits the rim.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:44am
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I would go with a double violation penalty.
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Old Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Not since they restricted them to entering after the ball hits the rim.

Mark, Jr., and I have had players as high up as the JV level try it since the rule was changed. Players do not think!

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 17, 2018, 09:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes. And "ignore the second violation is ONLY if both are in a marked lane space.

So, the OP is not covered. Use 2-3. I recommend using the arrow. I also agree it's not likely to happen.
Id be more inclined to treat in order of ocuurance. The delayed dead ball from B doesnt cause the ball to become dead immediately. The violation from A does make the ball dead immediately. Id give ball to B and move on....
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Old Sat Feb 17, 2018, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
This play has provided Mark, Jr., and I with hours and hours of conversation as we have traveled to games together.

I am in the vet's office (my family thought they were going to have to put me down, LOL!) with our dog.

I do not have access to my Rules Books but over the years the three Rules Committee has rewritten the rule from a simple rule to apply: If B1 violates first followed by a violation by A2, we had Jump Ball (AP Arrow today); very simple and elegant. Now we have multiple scenarios in which one needs to be at least a Structural Engineer (like me) or a Mechanical Engineering student (like Junior) to decipher the rule.

I base my Ruling of going to the AP Arrow based upon the history of the Rule, making the AP Arrow the only logical choice.

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Martin View Post
I would go with a double violation penalty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green View Post
Id be more inclined to treat in order of ocuurance. The delayed dead ball from B doesnt cause the ball to become dead immediately. The violation from A does make the ball dead immediately. Id give ball to B and move on....

Kelvin:

As noted earlier, as the three Rules Committees made this Rule more complicated, but trying to codify every possible scenario, the Committees forgot to include the Play we are discussing. Until the Committees either add this scenario to the Rules and assign a Penalty to it or the Committees could do the logical thing and turn the clock back 45 years or so and make the Rule simple (see the red highlighted sentence in my above comment) again: Which is the Ruling that Bob and I think would be the logical Ruling (great minds think alike).

MTD, Sr.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 18, 2018, 12:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Kelvin:

As noted earlier, as the three Rules Committees made this Rule more complicated, but trying to codify every possible scenario, the Committees forgot to include the Play we are discussing. Until the Committees either add this scenario to the Rules and assign a Penalty to it or the Committees could do the logical thing and turn the clock back 45 years or so and make the Rule simple (see the red highlighted sentence in my above comment) again: Which is the Ruling that Bob and I think would be the logical Ruling (great minds think alike).

MTD, Sr.
Youre right about the committee screwing up this rule. And I agree we need to go back to simple....
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 18, 2018, 01:04am
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Double violation. B's delayed violation is still a violation. It doesn't go away just because A violates too. A's makes the ball dead. This is no different than B violating and the shooter subsequently violating.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 18, 2018, 06:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.
Why would this NOT be a simultaneous violation? How is it different from B1 entering the lane early, followed by A1's try failing to hit the rim?
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