Do you have to think about incomplete "shovel" passes?

[Texas Aggie]

Had this happen twice this week in JH games, both times, a bean bag was thrown, OR one or more officials moved in position to determine possession as they would in a fumble.

First play: QB wrapped up (but not ruled down) and pitched ball forward with both hands. Second play tonight, QB was starting to lose control, but extended arm out and tossed ball forward only to have it hit the ground. On both plays, I was the one that ruled incomplete, and both times, I saw a covering official nod his head in agreement after I made the call. In other words, he knew what we had, but didn't put it together very fast.

Obviously, players go for a loose ball, and well they should. But, even when I've seen that play on TV for years, it always looked like an incomplete pass and still does, whether underhanded or two handed. Does anyone have trouble with the play, or did you when you started? Just curious.

[MJT]

I've never had a problem, but you had better think about what is going on every time you do see it. If he is behind the LOS and it hits the ground, you better have a whistle for an incomplete pass, and it if is too late, it does not look good for your crew. If it is beyond the LOS, you had better have a flag at the spot cuz we have an illegal forward pass. If it is beyond the LOS and is backwards, you have to have a bean bag down cuz that is the end of that run for penalty enforcement of a foul that occured before the fumble/pitch/backwards pass.

[waltjp]

I'm hoping you had an eligible receiver in the area.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Had this happen twice this week in JH games, both times, a bean bag was thrown, OR one or more officials moved in position to determine possession as they would in a fumble.

First play: QB wrapped up (but not ruled down) and pitched ball forward with both hands. Second play tonight, QB was starting to lose control, but extended arm out and tossed ball forward only to have it hit the ground. On both plays, I was the one that ruled incomplete, and both times, I saw a covering official nod his head in agreement after I made the call. In other words, he knew what we had, but didn't put it together very fast.

Obviously, players go for a loose ball, and well they should. But, even when I've seen that play on TV for years, it always looked like an incomplete pass and still does, whether underhanded or two handed. Does anyone have trouble with the play, or did you when you started? Just curious.

I would rather have officials take a moment to put it together but get it right as a crew than to have someone blow a whistle while a loose ball is on the ground. Remember, not everyone is watching the QB, or at least they are not supposed to. The Wing may very well have been watching the blocking and/or down field receivers and then out of the corner of his eye observed the ball become loose. He may not know how so his safest bet is to cover it like a fumble. The official responsible for the ball carrier is the one that must rule on fumble or forward pass.

[TXMike]

A "shovel pass" is a designed play. There is litlle mental processing that has to go on there. But what you have described is a QB in trouble and passing. There is a huge possibility of there being a foul on the play plus there is a need to be clear that it was the passer's deliberate act that caused the ball to come loose and not the act of the defender jarring it loose. That can understandably take a bit more processing time. I hope you are not so set on showing how quickly you can rule on this that you are automatically tooting your whistle without going through the processing.

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC
I would rather have officials take a moment to put it together but get it right as a crew than to have someone blow a whistle while a loose ball is on the ground. Remember, not everyone is watching the QB, or at least they are not supposed to. The Wing may very well have been watching the blocking and/or down field receivers and then out of the corner of his eye observed the ball become loose. He may not know how so his safest bet is to cover it like a fumble. The official responsible for the ball carrier is the one that must rule on fumble or forward pass.

I agree 1000%. There should only be one or two sets of eyes on the ball. In underclass games many times you have inexperienced officials working and they don't have the background or mental quickness to process these types of plays immediately. Not a dig on those guys, just saying that over time, they will become faster once their rules knowledge improves and they see plays like this more. I would much rather have an official sit on his whistle than blow it dead when we have a guy running downfield for a touchdown.

Hurry up and wait is some of the best advice for new officials. Hustle so you put yourself in position, but wait on the whistle. The whistle doesn't kill the play....

[Forksref]

Not all "shovel" passes are planned. I had one this year in which the QB was being wrapped up and he threw it underhanded and a back caught it. The back rolled out and threw a pass and I had to think for a second that we had 2 foward passes on the same play so I flagged for that.

One consideration is to watch for intentional grounding on these plays.

[dumbref]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie

QB was starting to lose control, but extended arm out and tossed ball forward

This is the only part of your play that gives me a little trouble. If the QB did not have control (I assume you mean of the ball) that would be a fumble.

But since you said "tossed" he must have regained control of the ball. Someone would have to be very decisive and have a real good angle to make that call immediately.

[Mike L]

Originally posted by MJT
I've never had a problem, but you had better think about what is going on every time you do see it. If he is behind the LOS and it hits the ground, you better have a whistle for an incomplete pass, and it if is too late, it does not look good for your crew. If it is beyond the LOS, you had better have a flag at the spot cuz we have an illegal forward pass. If it is beyond the LOS and is backwards, you have to have a bean bag down cuz that is the end of that run for penalty enforcement of a foul that occured before the fumble/pitch/backwards pass.

I'm just wondering about a couple statements here. I think I know what you mean, but by saying the pass hitting the ground behind the LOS is an imcomplete and the pass hitting beyond the LOS is an illegal pass, you seem to be stating that a pass behind the LOS can't be intentional grounding while the pass beyond can't be legal. I'm not sure I would make those absolutes.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Mike L

I'm just wondering about a couple statements here. I think I know what you mean, but by saying the pass hitting the ground behind the LOS is an imcomplete and the pass hitting beyond the LOS is an illegal pass, you seem to be stating that a pass behind the LOS can't be intentional grounding while the pass beyond can't be legal. I'm not sure I would make those absolutes.

No, but the pass behind the LOS must be incomplete if IG is called, and a forward pass beyond the LOS will be illegal, and a BWPass beyond the LOS must be bean bagged. The latter is an absolute, and the former is a possible, but not automatic IG. Does that make sense?

[Texas Aggie]

>>a forward pass beyond the LOS will be illegal<<

Why?

Good comments, but keep in mind two things:

1. There were backs all over the place, so the issue of eligible receivers is not an issue.

2. There's no question that the QB was trying to "pass" the ball forward. The "starting to lose control" meant, due to pressure from the defense and the fact that the QB was holding the ball in one hand, it is reasonably foreseeable that the QB would have lost the ball either due to it being knocked away or it being dropped. I added the comment not for its descriptiveness, but to illustrate that the QB pitched the ball at the last minute.

I call a "shovel" pass an underhanded pass, whether planned or not.

Fed may be different, but NCAA says when in doubt, it is a pass rather than a fumble. Thus, I'm not sure what the crew getting together to discuss the play accomplishes, other than the event not being seen clearly by one official. The guy that threw the bean bag last night (R) said afterward that what I did was 100% correct in calling it INC. Besides, I'm of the view that you don't give a team a "cheap" fumble, so I honestly don't see the problem in a covering official killing it if he rules INC.

[TXMike]

I think he means if the ball is thrown when the passer is beyond the LOS it is illegal.

[ljudge]

Originally posted by waltjp
I'm hoping you had an eligible receiver in the area.

I've always got the incomplete correct, but admit I have missed this once or twice in the past...at the sub-varsity level thank God.

[waltjp]

Originally posted by ljudge

I've always got the incomplete correct, but admit I have missed this once or twice in the past...at the sub-varsity level thank God.

Haven't we all?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Had this happen twice this week in JH games, both times, a bean bag was thrown, OR one or more officials moved in position to determine possession as they would in a fumble.

First play: QB wrapped up (but not ruled down) and pitched ball forward with both hands. Second play tonight, QB was starting to lose control, but extended arm out and tossed ball forward only to have it hit the ground. On both plays, I was the one that ruled incomplete, and both times, I saw a covering official nod his head in agreement after I made the call. In other words, he knew what we had, but didn't put it together very fast.

Obviously, players go for a loose ball, and well they should. But, even when I've seen that play on TV for years, it always looked like an incomplete pass and still does, whether underhanded or two handed. Does anyone have trouble with the play, or did you when you started? Just curious.

I guess this depends on your definition of "think." If I process that it was a shovel pass then there is no doubt in my mind that it is incomplete if it hits the ground.

That being said, I agree with what was said before. I hope that myself and other officials take a second, make sure we know what we saw, and then blow it dead. I'd prefer to have a slow whistle and have to explain to the defensive coach why we didn't let his team return a 'fumble' for TD rather than have an IW. In major college ball, officials there are usually slow on the whistles on shovel passes.