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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 02:29pm
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Contact above the shoulders

Why can I not find the rule on contact to the head? I believe it was a 2013 NFHS change that said contact with an elbow in motion is to be ruled an intentional foul. Contact with an elbow with excessive movement should be ruled flagrant.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 View Post
Why can I not find the rule on contact to the head? I believe it was a 2013 NFHS change that said contact with an elbow in motion is to be ruled an intentional foul. Contact with an elbow with excessive movement should be ruled flagrant.
If I remember correctly, this was a POE (case play interpretation) -- not an actual change in the rule.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 02:44pm
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Discussed ad nauseam on this forum.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 04:47pm
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I can't find an archive of this anywhere either. Has this emphasis changed. I'm failing to find the rule anywhere in current books.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 05:13pm
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It's not in any of the current books. I'm not sure when the language dropped out, but (at least in my area) it has been accepted that the interpretation remains valid.

If asked, I would state something like: "Coach, NHFS has emphasized that an elbow in motion making contact with an opponent in an Intentional Foul"

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.
a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 08:59pm
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Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
It's not in any of the current books. I'm not sure when the language dropped out, but (at least in my area) it has been accepted that the interpretation remains valid.

If asked, I would state something like: "Coach, NHFS has emphasized that an elbow in motion making contact with an opponent in an Intentional Foul"

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.
a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy to not abe a written rule in the rule book, if this is what they want called? I try really hard to ALWAYS quote the actual rule when teaching on something at our chapter meetings. This is a topic people wanted to talk about, and not having a rule reference is making that difficult.

Thanks for the archived P. O. E however😀
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 10:09am
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Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 View Post
Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy to not abe a written rule in the rule book, if this is what they want called? I try really hard to ALWAYS quote the actual rule when teaching on something at our chapter meetings. This is a topic people wanted to talk about, and not having a rule reference is making that difficult.

Thanks for the archived P. O. E however😀
This has been discussed here before -- Most agree with you that this should have been put into the rules. That said, it isn't in conflict with the rule. If you prefer to cite the Intentional Foul rule, you can still do that by saying something like "Coach, I saw an elbow in motion contact the opponent above the shoulders which I ruled to be excessive contact" I doubt this is one that most coaches are going to argue.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 02:46pm
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Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
This has been discussed here before -- Most agree with you that this should have been put into the rules. That said, it isn't in conflict with the rule. If you prefer to cite the Intentional Foul rule, you can still do that by saying something like "Coach, I saw an elbow in motion contact the opponent above the shoulders which I ruled to be excessive contact" I doubt this is one that most coaches are going to argue.
It is my number one issue with NFHS. Never made it to rule book. The POE says contact with elbow "in movement" above shoulders is an intentional foul...at very least. If it is "excessive" it is Flagrant and player tossed. Any elbow moving and contact made-intentional at least...
If you want me to call it that way I need to see it in a rule so someone else can see why I did so....😞
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 04:10pm
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Swingers ...

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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 31, 2018 at 04:15pm.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 04:57pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Isn't swinging faster than the torso but without making contact still a violation?
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 05:02pm
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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Isn't swinging faster than the torso but without making contact still a violation?
First line of the second half of the chart.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 05:04pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
First line of the second half of the chart.
I guess it just seems contradictory to the first line a bit, but I guess that is segregating fouls and violations.
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Old Thu Feb 01, 2018, 08:52am
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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
I guess it just seems contradictory to the first line a bit, but I guess that is segregating fouls and violations.
The very first line is "no excessive swinging" -- so it's clearly NOT going to be a violation or anything flagrant.

The first line of the second part is "excessive swinging" -- so both of those are in play.

Ther's no contradiction (there is some question as to whether NFHS / your state still wants it enforced this way), but the cart was accurate based on the POE
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Old Thu Feb 01, 2018, 09:42pm
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Truly a nice chart, Craig (via Billy).

But if someone swings an elbow above a defender's head, that's not going to be an intentional or flagrant PF in my games.

Now if an elbow is swung into/onto an opponent's head or above the shoulders ...
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Old Fri Feb 02, 2018, 10:41am
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Originally Posted by Amesman View Post

But if someone swings an elbow above a defender's head, that's not going to be an intentional or flagrant PF in my games.
Who is advocating for that?
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