Timing issue

[Sharmon]

The ball is being inbounded and is immediately tipped out of bounds by the DEFENCE. The official fails to start the clock on the touch. How much time, if any, should be taken off the clock, when the ball is subsequently inbounded by the offense?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Sharmon

The ball is being inbounded and is immediately tipped out of bounds by the DEFENCE. The official fails to start the clock on the touch. How much time, if any, should be taken off the clock, when the ball is subsequently inbounded by the offense?

NCAAW: If less than a minute remains, then a minimum of .3 must run off the clock.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAAW: If less than a minute remains, then a minimum of .3 must run off the clock.

Men, too.

[walt]

NFHS - Unless you have definitive knowledge (i.e. an arm swing count), leave the clock where it is. In your example of an immediate tip out of bounds, cannot take anything off. I don't have my book in front of me but I believe that for NFHS, even under a minute, you leave the clock where it is. NCAAW and NCAAM specifically address this under a minute situation and take off .3 sec if the game clock doesn't move.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by walt

NFHS - Unless you have definitive knowledge (i.e. an arm swing count), leave the clock where it is. In your example of an immediate tip out of bounds, cannot take anything off. I don't have my book in front of me but I believe that for NFHS, even under a minute, you leave the clock where it is. NCAAW and NCAAM specifically address this under a minute situation and take off .3 sec if the game clock doesn't move.

Except that there is a case / annual interp to the effect that "some time, likely 10th of a second" can be take off.

Edit: From 2009-10: SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[walt]

Thanks for posting that interp. So now I have a question, how do you determine how many tenths of a second? As I know you know, NCAAW and NCAAM made it .3 by rule.

[bucky]

For c, the team will lose the ability to run the end line and have a designated spot throw-in. IMO, the least amount of time, should be taken off. If the clock did display tenths of a second, I would go with 1/10th and I would have the throw-in take place closest to where the ball was touched. IOW, if the player took a dribble I would still focus on the timing/inbound based on where it was initially touched, not where the player was when I blew my whistle.

[LRZ]

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved." Rule 5-10-1

OK, let's set the issue of "definite knowledge" aside. The only way I could approximate how much time lapsed would be to have the timer start the clock, then immediately stop it. Note that the case Bob cited reads "1/10s," i.e., plural.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Note that the case Bob cited reads "1/10s," i.e., plural.

It also reads "likely" and they are referring, IMO, to it as plural for the sake of what is displayed on the clock and the grammar of the sentence, not to actually mean that more than one tenth must come off the clock.

[LRZ]

True, "likely" does not mean "must," but .1 sec is awfully brief. IMO, "likely 1/10s" suggests "more likely than not" or "probably" more than one/tenth. But, rather than guess or arbitrarily rule, I'd still try to approximate or perhaps go with the college minimum of .3 seconds.

But we are splitting extremely fine hairs.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by LRZ

True, "likely" does not mean "must," but .1 sec is awfully brief. IMO, "likely 1/10s" suggests "more likely than not" or "probably" more than one/tenth. But, rather than guess or arbitrarily rule, I'd still try to approximate or perhaps go with the college minimum of .3 seconds.

But we are splitting extremely fine hairs.

Agreed, I just don't like to see the kids/players suffer because of mistakes made by officials/table. I would want to, in this case, give them as much time as possible.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by bucky

Agreed, I just don't like to see the kids/players suffer because of mistakes made by officials/table. I would want to, in this case, give them as much time as possible.

One of the teams would likely prefer less time. Not taking at least some time off is disadvantageous to the defense.

[frezer11]

Something else to consider, based on Bob's case play: What if the long pass is to a wide open kid who has a one step layup? Do you withhold the whistle or allow it to play out? Reminds me of the provision of withhold the whistle for a technical foul when the other team has a clear breakaway layup.