Timing Issue

[tbianco]

This issue came up in our meeting tonight and it wasn't resolved before we left. If on second down there is an incomplete forward pass and on third down the offense has an illegal shift on a running play which ends inbounds and does not result in a first down, should the defense accept the penalty, will the clock start on the ready for play or does it start on the snap? We had officials that were on both sides of the fence on this one. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ted

[Warrenkicker]

The clock starts on the RFP. The previous play, the third down play, ended with the ball dead inbounds and thus the clock was stopped for an official's timeout to administer the penalty.

3-4-2 The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3-4-3 or an untimed down:
a. For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided:
1. There has been no charged time-out during the dead-ball interval.
2. The down is not an extension of a period or a try.
3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.
c. Because of an inadvertent whistle.

[mikesears]

A live ball foul will always use the result of the action during the down in which the foul occured to determine the status of the clock.

on 3rd down, A1 goes out of bounds. A2 is flagged for holding. Clock starts on the snap regardless of if penalty is accepted or declined. Assume it was accepted.

Replay of 3rd down action, A1 is tackled inbounds but B1 commits a PF facemask foul against A1. Assume the penalty moved the ball beyond the line to gain. Clock starts on the ready for play because the action that caused the down to end (player tackled inbounds) does not stop the game clock. Only reason clock was stopped was to administer a penalty and to move the chains.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by tbianco

This issue came up in our meeting tonight and it wasn't resolved before we left. If on second down there is an incomplete forward pass and on third down the offense has an illegal shift on a running play which ends inbounds and does not result in a first down, should the defense accept the penalty, will the clock start on the ready for play or does it start on the snap? We had officials that were on both sides of the fence on this one. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ted

Had no foul occured, the clock would be running. Since the only reason to stop the clock was the penalty (accepted or not), wind the clock.

[svm1010]

The way I look at it is this. If the foul had not occurred what would the clock be doing? If it would still be running then it should start on the RFP if not then it would start on the snap.

Granted there are a couple of exceptions, such as a delay penalty that you have to be aware of, but that summary has served me well over the years.

So in this situation, if you ignore the illegal shift, the play ended inbounds so the clock would still be running. So after the enforcement the clock would be started at the RFP. The preceding incomplete pass has no bearing on the clock status once the ball is legaly snapped.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by svm1010

The way I look at it is this. If the foul had not occurred what would the clock be doing? If it would still be running then it should start on the RFP if not then it would start on the snap.

Granted there are a couple of exceptions, such as a delay penalty that you have to be aware of, but that summary has served me well over the years.

So in this situation, if you ignore the illegal shift, the play ended inbounds so the clock would still be running. So after the enforcement the clock would be started at the RFP. The preceding incomplete pass has no bearing on the clock status once the ball is legaly snapped.

We need to be careful using the status of the clock absent the foul. It works most of the time, but consider this play.

4/10 at the K-30. Team K is flagged for only having six men on the line of scrimmage. K1 punts the ball and it is touched by R1 at the R-40. K2 recovers the muff at the R-35. R accepts the penalty which forces K to replay 4th down.

Q: When does the clock start?

If we used what would have happened absent the foul, it would have started on the snap because K would have been awarded a new series following a legal kick.

Correct Answer is on the ready for play. Neither team was awarded a new series following a legal kick.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by svm1010

The way I look at it is this. If the foul had not occurred what would the clock be doing? If it would still be running then it should start on the RFP if not then it would start on the snap.

Granted there are a couple of exceptions, such as a delay penalty that you have to be aware of, but that summary has served me well over the years.

So in this situation, if you ignore the illegal shift, the play ended inbounds so the clock would still be running. So after the enforcement the clock would be started at the RFP. The preceding incomplete pass has no bearing on the clock status once the ball is legaly snapped.

We need to be careful using the status of the clock absent the foul. It works most of the time, but consider this play.

4/10 at the K-30. Team K is flagged for only having six men on the line of scrimmage. K1 punts the ball and it is touched by R1 at the R-40. R2 recovers the muff at the R-15 where he is downed. R accepts the penalty which forces K to rekick.

Q: When does the clock start?

If we used what would have happened absent the foul, it would have started on the snap because R would have been awarded a new series following a legal kick.

Correct Answer is on the ready for play. Neither team was awarded a new series following a legal kick.

[Theisey]

"Correct Answer is on the ready for play. Neither team was awarded a new series following a legal kick."

certainly for NFHS, not so for NCAA.. which makes it no brainer to figure out.

[svm1010]

Originally Posted by mikesears

We need to be careful using the status of the clock absent the foul. It works most of the time, but consider this play.

True,which is why I mentioned that there are exceptions. Rules of thumb are no substitue for real rules knowlegde.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by tbianco

This issue came up in our meeting tonight and it wasn't resolved before we left. If on second down there is an incomplete forward pass and on third down the offense has an illegal formation on a running play which ends inbounds and does not result in a first down (immaterial in Cdn ball), should the defense accept the penalty, will the clock start on the ready for play or does it start on the snap?

(We don't have illegal shifts, so I changed it for a Cdn scenario by flagging an illegal formation instead.)

CANADIAN RULING:

Before the 3-minute warning: Clock on the Ready.
After the 3-minute warning: Clock on the Snap.