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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 12:39pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I'm wondering if you'd be willing to expand on what you mean by this. I'm not doubting you at all on this, so please don't mistake this for skepticism. I can imagine what you're saying, but am curious about this. How often does this type of thing happen? What types of things are they saying that they wouldn't say to me? How do you handle that? Is there a line in the sand for you? Do Black coaches interact with you differently than they do with your partners and/or differently than white coaches do?
What I am saying is that Black players tend to be a little "extra" with Black officials. They tend to say things to us they never would imagine saying to other officials. I deal with this all the time where I live in both high school and college games. I have had this conversation with many Black officials as to how Black players and coaches act towards us when we have Caucasian partners or non-Black partners.

I will give one example that happened to me last week. I had a game between a City team and a Suburban Catholic school (That plays in the major city Catholic School Conference) that happened to have a couple of white players on the team. The coach from the All-Black city team had the nerve to say to me something about the racial breakdown of his opponent. I got actually upset and challenged him directly when he made that comment. And you can say, "Why didn't you T him?" Well, that would have caused another issue and would have been ammo to use against me based on what was happening in the game. But I got my point across and we moved on. BTW, the teams both had the same amount of fouls in the game and we fouled out only one player in the game and he happened to be a Caucasian player. But if you listened to this coach all night you would have thought we were screwing him or had something against him. His team also won the game by about 4 in a tough game. For the record, I was not the only Black official on the game and it was clear that the players and coaches from this one team said very little to our white partner, even when he would make a call that was all on him. This is common, it is annoying and there is no easy solution. You just have to have a team or area enough where they realize you do not give a damn either way.

I will just say this. People do not leave their social, political, or values at the door when playing sports. It often is an issue from everything to assigning to how you have to deal with the extracurricular in a game. And this was the case when I worked a game in my new home state where I was the only Black official and you would have thought I was the only official a certain coach would talk to. It gets old and unless I know something about what was said to Teddy, I get it big time. Because if he has to constantly hear his mouth, sometimes you need to do drastic things to get player's attention. It was certainly drastic but might have been the last straw.

Peace
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 12:58pm
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Thanks for the response. That's what I was curious about. As a History teacher, I've always been interested in inter/intra racial relations. Often when guys around here get metro league assignments, if it is a suburban school (much lower percentage of minority students) vs. a city school (very high percentage of minority students), I've noticed that there is usually a Black official. I assume this is by design and it's probably a good practice. I'm sure they also deal with the same thing that you do, but I don't hear much of it or much about it so I'm always curious if that happens often. It's a hard subject to have a conversation about, and I'm always nervous that I will offend someone by asking the wrong question or a stupid question but this is interesting to me.

Do you have a line in the sand where you are going to shut them down and/or issue a technical, or is that fluid based on their previous interactions? Do you notice a difference between the way white coaches treat you vs. your partners?
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 01:06pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Watch the full clip Jeff, Teddy turns back around and asks for the ball with his hands. The player starts to give it to him, then puts it on the ground.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21955293
Why was Berry complaining to Teddy Valentine about that missed call? When are players and coaches going to quit complaining to the referees who have nothing to do with the play in question? And Teddy asked for the ball and Berry chose instead to complain, so Valentine turned his back.

And if Valentine was wrong, that means he was wrong no matter what the status of the player was. What does being a 4-year player or a national championship point guard have to do with the conversation?

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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Jan 04, 2018 at 01:11pm.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 01:10pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
Thanks for the response. That's what I was curious about. As a History teacher, I've always been interested in inter/intra racial relations. Often when guys around here get metro league assignments, if it is a suburban school (much lower percentage of minority students) vs. a city school (very high percentage of minority students), I've noticed that there is usually a Black official. I assume this is by design and it's probably a good practice. I'm sure they also deal with the same thing that you do, but I don't hear much of it or much about it so I'm always curious if that happens often. It's a hard subject to have a conversation about, and I'm always nervous that I will offend someone by asking the wrong question or a stupid question but this is interesting to me.

Do you have a line in the sand where you are going to shut them down and/or issue a technical, or is that fluid based on their previous interactions? Do you notice a difference between the way white coaches treat you vs. your partners?
I think it was a great question. I wish more people would ask questions on sensitive subjects instead of just making assumptions about what others are talking about. Sometimes you find there are things in play that you could never have imagined.



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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What I am saying is that Black players tend to be a little "extra" with Black officials. They tend to say things to us they never would imagine saying to other officials. I deal with this all the time where I live in both high school and college games. I have had this conversation with many Black officials as to how Black players and coaches act towards us when we have Caucasian partners or non-Black partners.

I will give one example that happened to me last week. I had a game between a City team and a Suburban Catholic school (That plays in the major city Catholic School Conference) that happened to have a couple of white players on the team. The coach from the All-Black city team had the nerve to say to me something about the racial breakdown of his opponent. I got actually upset and challenged him directly when he made that comment. And you can say, "Why didn't you T him?" Well, that would have caused another issue and would have been ammo to use against me based on what was happening in the game. But I got my point across and we moved on. BTW, the teams both had the same amount of fouls in the game and we fouled out only one player in the game and he happened to be a Caucasian player. But if you listened to this coach all night you would have thought we were screwing him or had something against him. His team also won the game by about 4 in a tough game. For the record, I was not the only Black official on the game and it was clear that the players and coaches from this one team said very little to our white partner, even when he would make a call that was all on him. This is common, it is annoying and there is no easy solution. You just have to have a team or area enough where they realize you do not give a damn either way.

I will just say this. People do not leave their social, political, or values at the door when playing sports. It often is an issue from everything to assigning to how you have to deal with the extracurricular in a game. And this was the case when I worked a game in my new home state where I was the only Black official and you would have thought I was the only official a certain coach would talk to. It gets old and unless I know something about what was said to Teddy, I get it big time. Because if he has to constantly hear his mouth, sometimes you need to do drastic things to get player's attention. It was certainly drastic but might have been the last straw.

Peace
I call it reverse racism. Was subjected to it for many years and now occasionally run into it.

Quote:
There’s a reason Teddy continues to work high-profile games and go deep into the postseason.
Yes, the Good 'Ol Boys Network.

Quote:
He did not ask for the ball and it was a timeout. IJS.
Indeed, watch the entire clip. Did not appear to even be his line either but Teddy made the OB signal. When the player placed the ball on the floor, it is no wonder that Teddy did not issue a T for not giving the ball to the nearest official. LOL. Kinda wished he did as we might have seen a chair thrown.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 01:38pm
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One thing I meant to ask JRut, in your example you talked about the coach making comments all game. Do you think that would influence your partners in his favor? TBH, I would have a tough time not giving his team all the 50/50 calls just to keep the peace and not be accused of something sinister if he kept talking about his team not getting calls because of their racial makeup.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Yes, the Good 'Ol Boys Network.
If these coaches didn’t want Teddy on their games I guarantee you he wouldn’t be. He’s repeatedly tabbed one of the best officials in the country by coaches. Whether or not we should care about that is irrelevant; at this level, to a certain extent, you have to have the trust of the coaches or you will not be around long.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 02:06pm
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I think I hear what JRutledge is saying. I've been in some interesting situations.

I have games where sometimes I'm the only white person on the court. And the coaches who are both black, will go to my partners long before they ever would talk to me. That doesn't bother me, its part of life and all I can do is work hard to earn their respect.

I've also been in situations where players that are on a sports team, this might be their escape from what's ever going on outside of basketball. And yes, that some times means dealing with situations a little differently.

For me, I try to be neutral to all of those things which is the great part of being an official. That doesn't mean I am not aware, but I would hope my best judgement helps guide me through situations because I don't know that there is a silver bullet.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 02:14pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
Thanks for the response. That's what I was curious about. As a History teacher, I've always been interested in inter/intra racial relations. Often when guys around here get metro league assignments, if it is a suburban school (much lower percentage of minority students) vs. a city school (very high percentage of minority students), I've noticed that there is usually a Black official. I assume this is by design and it's probably a good practice. I'm sure they also deal with the same thing that you do, but I don't hear much of it or much about it so I'm always curious if that happens often. It's a hard subject to have a conversation about, and I'm always nervous that I will offend someone by asking the wrong question or a stupid question but this is interesting to me.
Don't feel nervous, this is just life. This is not something that changes because we are talking about a sport. I wish that there was nothing else but our job, but often that is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
Do you have a line in the sand where you are going to shut them down and/or issue a technical, or is that fluid based on their previous interactions? Do you notice a difference between the way white coaches treat you vs. your partners?
Of course, I have lines, but I also know the situation I am in. And when you are in certain situations, you have to often deal with them in unconventional ways. The situation I talked about also got the focus back on the game, not me or my partner's and who happened to be one color or another. It was not perfect, but it got the job done. And I had to approach him as a man, which would not have solved anything by a T. If I had given a T in this situation, it would have been all about me. I was trying to avoid that.

Keep in mind I have officiated all over the state of Illinois. I have officiated in small rural towns from large urban, poverty-stricken areas. Yes, I have been mistreated in ways that I feel it is about my race from white coaches. But those situations are much more subtle and much more under the radar. When I deal with a Black coach in many cases they will come right out and say what they are thinking. It puts you in a peculiar situation when no one hears the comments. But I will say this by far the blatant disrespect I have gotten is from people that look like me. And it usually surrounds who they are playing and who they think is on their side, whatever that is supposed to mean to them.

I am not trying to take this off on something else, but I can imagine what Teddy had to deal with when it came to this player and why he took such an extreme situation to solve the problem. Again, the problem seemed to be solved. The player stayed in the game and he probably stopped bitching to him about plays. So when someone suggests that the player won, that is funny because if a player goes back to playing and keeping his mouth shut to me, I win that every single time. It does not help you coming to me as if you are in the NBA because you did not like a call. And he was not the official that likely saw the play as clear.

Peace
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 02:19pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I call it reverse racism. Was subjected to it for many years and now occasionally run into it.
Racism is racism, but this has nothing to do with anything in reverse. This is more cultural as to how people of one group interact with each other or try to make a point that might not be even an issue. But that is a conversation for another day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Yes, the Good 'Ol Boys Network.
No, the coaches like guys they have seen. And I bet the coaches for North Carolina are probably having a different conversation about this than some media person that was not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Indeed, watch the entire clip. Did not appear to even be his line either but Teddy made the OB signal. When the player placed the ball on the floor, it is no wonder that Teddy did not issue a T for not giving the ball to the nearest official. LOL. Kinda wished he did as we might have seen a chair thrown.
Well, they are in transition and a long pass falls in his lap. That is often a call that both the Trail or the Lead can and will make if they clearly see. If they were in the half court I would agree that is not his line, but the lead is a long way away from that play.

Peace
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 02:45pm
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I don't like this type of disrespectful behavior from an official. It reflects poorly on our profession and creates a negative perception. I am not going to try to justify it much like coaches often try to justify their or their players behavior. Just because he is the best or among the best in the country does not mean he is above screwing up or acting inappropriately.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Racism is racism, but this has nothing to do with anything in reverse. This is more cultural as to how people of one group interact with each other or try to make a point that might not be even an issue. But that is a conversation for another day.
Not sure I totally understand as reverse racism is an actual thing, separate from just racism. Agree, different topic for different day and I do see your point.

Quote:
No, the coaches like guys they have seen.
As I said, the Good Ol' Boys Network.

Quote:
Well, they are in transition and a long pass falls in his lap. That is often a call that both the Trail or the Lead can and will make if they clearly see. If they were in the half court I would agree that is not his line, but the lead is a long way away from that play.
Peace
Agree, but then makes me wonder how, L(Teddy) or T, missed the holding foul. Even C looking across could have gotten it. It resulted in a turnover so no surprise that the player wanted to inquire about it. Instead of what Teddy did, all he had to say was that he did not see it or missed it. Had he done that, then we would not be having this thread.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 04:04pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Not sure I totally understand as reverse racism is an actual thing, separate from just racism. Agree, different topic for different day and I do see your point.
Reverse from what? The issue again was with people of the same race. Not sure what the reverse took place. And no it is not a thing, it is a made up thing by people in the power position to complain about them being violated as if they really are being harmed. Most people that are historically discriminated against are not in a position to prevent those in power from anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
As I said, the Good Ol' Boys Network.
What does that have to do with any network? They know exactly what they are going to get with Teddy and others like him and they have been in the bigger games time and time again. They like the devil they know, not the guy they have never seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Agree, but then makes me wonder how, L(Teddy) or T, missed the holding foul. Even C looking across could have gotten it. It resulted in a turnover so no surprise that the player wanted to inquire about it. Instead of what Teddy did, all he had to say was that he did not see it or missed it. Had he done that, then we would not be having this thread.
Teddy was the last person to see this. He was at best straightlined and had a horrible angle. He had other players coming at him that were closer. If the pass was not so bad then there would have been no reason to even focus on this player.

Yeah, players accept your reasoning with them. Yeah, that happens.

Next thing you going to tell me players do not complain about fouls. The very last foul in that game the player goes behind the rebounder and damn near rips off his arms and the player acted like he was totally innocent. Yep, we would never talk about the behavior of players.

Peace
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 06:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamnegger View Post
I don't like this type of disrespectful behavior from an official. It reflects poorly on our profession and creates a negative perception. I am not going to try to justify it much like coaches often try to justify their or their players behavior. Just because he is the best or among the best in the country does not mean he is above screwing up or acting inappropriately.
As I read somewhere else, we as officials should conduct ourselves in a presidential manner. The public expects no less.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2018, 06:52pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
As I read somewhere else, we as officials should conduct ourselves in a presidential manner. The public expects no less.

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Yep.

Peace
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