Starting count - at 0 or 1?

[Raymond]

I can't believe we're actually having this discussions.

Next thing you know Billy will come along and tell us that the book doesn't give clear guidance on when the 1st second actually occurs.

[just another ref]

As Raymond says, I can't believe this is a discussion. But since it is:

The arm swing is not an instant act. The first arm swing consumes the time between 0 and 1, the second consumes the time between 1 and 2........and so on.

Raymond and I will take your follow-up questions now.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As Raymond says, I can't believe this is a discussion. But since it is:

The arm swing is not an instant act. The first arm swing consumes the time between 0 and 1, the second consumes the time between 1 and 2........and so on.

Raymond and I will take your follow-up questions now.

Indeed, so based on that rational, the ball can be at the disposal of a player for an inbound, the count started, but no visual count seen yet. Correct?

CASE: A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball to inbound it. When is the official's count seen by everyone? Ruling: At one second.

Explanation: In the judgement of the official for this case, the ball is considered to be at the disposal of B1 when B1 grabs the ball. The official starts his count in his head and the first visual signal of the official's count would be at one second.

Correct?

Given all this, the ball can be at the disposal of a player and the official's count can be started all without a visual signal.

Correct?

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bucky

Indeed, so based on that rational, the ball can be at the disposal of a player for an inbound, the count started, but no visual count seen yet. Correct?

CASE: A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball to inbound it. When is the official's count seen by everyone? Ruling: At one second.

Explanation: In the judgement of the official for this case, the ball is considered to be at the disposal of B1 when B1 grabs the ball. The official starts his count in his head and the first visual signal of the official's count would be at one second.

Correct?


Given all this, the ball can be at the disposal of a player and the official's count can be started all without a visual signal.

Correct?

The answer to the first question is clearly no. The arm swing ends at one second. So the visual cue is pretty much as soon as the count starts.

As to the second, I suppose there is a brief moment between the time the referee thinks "Ah, ha, it is at his disposal!" and the arm motion actually starts. But it should be far less than a second.

[just another ref]

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

All the visible part of it really does is show someone that you're counting and how fast.

Originally Posted by just another ref

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

Whenever I'm chopping I try to put the chopping arm toward the table so they can see it better. Thus, the count goes to the other arm.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

The answer to the first question is clearly no. The arm swing ends at one second. So the visual cue is pretty much as soon as the count starts.

As to the second, I suppose there is a brief moment between the time the referee thinks "Ah, ha, it is at his disposal!" and the arm motion actually starts. But it should be far less than a second.

I have to respectfully disagree with the answer to the first question and it looks as if you are saying yes by your sentence "The arm swing ends at one second." Clearly time elapses from 0 to one second at which time there would be no visual indication of a count.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have to respectfully disagree with the answer to the first question and it looks as if you are saying yes by your sentence "The arm swing ends at one second." Clearly time elapses from 0 to one second at which time there would be no visual indication of a count.

There's the start of the swing and the motion of the arm. The same thing that happens between 1 and 2 (etc.). No one is complaining "hey -- you stopped your count" during that interval

[Pantherdreams]

Look.

You are getting five arm movements. You can also count 1001 or 1 Mississippi I don’t care. By the time my arm gets out and back you’ve gotten 1 of those, you get 5 full ones. And as per Roman generals instructions a distinct pause after last chop before whistle blows.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have to respectfully disagree with the answer to the first question and it looks as if you are saying yes by your sentence "The arm swing ends at one second." Clearly time elapses from 0 to one second at which time there would be no visual indication of a count.

My arms start down by my side. When I deem ball at disposal, I start counting "one thousand...". When I start count in my head my arm comes up to my chest. It goes out as I say "one." It comes in to my body as I say"one thousand"....and back out when I say "2." And so on. The visual indicator at the start is my arm going up to my chest.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Next thing you know Billy will come along and tell us that the book doesn't give clear guidance on when the 1st second actually occurs.

Hey. Along with an extra whistle, I have a stopwatch in my pocket, I know how to use it, and I'm not afraid to use it.